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Thread: Hammering For Labour In Hartlepool

  1. #41

    Re: Hammering For Labour In Hartlepool

    Quote Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY View Post
    I think I need to nail this into your head

    I want a moderate , left of centre alternative to the tories
    Where nothing changes, the poor get poorer, more homeless, more depression, more addiction, communities reliant on anti depressants, lack of real job prospects, break up of families etc.... You know the drill...All the things you care about, yet you want to implement a party that would do very little to improve these people's lives. You had better get a life times supply of blankets, soup and keep adding to the food banks, those numbers you provide on mental health are going to be useful as well if you believe that a centrist party will do anything to help the poor. Good luck mate.

  2. #42

    Re: Hammering For Labour In Hartlepool

    Labour have lived on the past for too long, many Labour voters voted for them as " my dad did " or " its what we vote around these parts ", voting day is very easy for them , Arrive, get ballot papers and look for labour, put cross in that box

    a political party cannot survive like that for long

    Voters actually do a little research these days, if a voter see's a party that they like the look of, they get the vote ( it could actually be the evil empire, the Tories ), the blind sheep like voter ( described above ) is on its way out

  3. #43

    Re: Hammering For Labour In Hartlepool

    Quote Originally Posted by dml1954 View Post
    10 years of Tory austerity that came about as a result of Labour almost bankrupting the Country. People are not stupid, they have longer memories that Corbyn and Starmer gave them credit for. They also realised that in spite of all the hardship caused by the austerity measures, the alternative is a Labour Government who ridiculously wanted to go on a reckless spending spree by borrowing hundreds of billions more.
    it was good times though

  4. #44

    Re: Hammering For Labour In Hartlepool

    Quote Originally Posted by blue matt View Post
    Labour have lived on the past for too long, many Labour voters voted for them as " my dad did " or " its what we vote around these parts ", voting day is very easy for them , Arrive, get ballot papers and look for labour, put cross in that box

    a political party cannot survive like that for long

    Voters actually do a little research these days, if a voter see's a party that they like the look of, they get the vote ( it could actually be the evil empire, the Tories ), the blind sheep like voter ( described above ) is on its way out
    No I don't agree with that.
    There are just as many dyed in the wool tory areas as Labour.

    And I don't agree on research, especially into policies.
    I know several people who expressed very strong anti Corbyn opinions at the time of the last election, but couldn't have named a single one of his policies. And when some of the policies were suggested to them they thought they sounded good - but they still didn't like Corbyn.


    One person described him as a "nasty piece of work" without being able to explain why.

  5. #45
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    Re: Hammering For Labour In Hartlepool

    Quote Originally Posted by LeningradCowboy View Post
    The left wing of the Labour party handed the Tories their biggest majority for over 30 years at the last general election.
    The same people who in 2017 achieved the greatest increase in vote share since 1945 - and were a few thousand votes in key seats off winning power?

    The majority of the Parliamentary Labour Party (fully backed by the Tory press and the Guardian) have been at war with the majority of the membership since they had the audacity to elect Corbyn in 2015 and again in 2016 after the Chicken Coup.

    Labour had popular policies in 2017, and they hadn't changed too much by 2019 - except for the incoherent position on Brexit.

    Corbyn was a poor party manager (probably an impossible job given what was ranged against him) and avoided confrontation too much, but as a campaigner and inspiration to hundreds of thousands of activists he had qualities that Starmer can only dream about. Starmer has trashed his 10 election pledges, backed or abstained on Tory legislation, seen about 60,000 members resign and gagged (with suspensions) about 200 constituency parties.

    The demoralisation of Labour under an ineffective and right-leaning Starmer, combined with the Vaccine Bounce, the continuing effects of Brexit (and a bit of gunboat diplomacy on the day before the election) is more than enough to see Labour hammered and the Tories seeing their corruption and incompetence ignored or even celebrated.

    No surprise but totally depressing!

  6. #46

    Re: Hammering For Labour In Hartlepool

    Quote Originally Posted by dml1954 View Post
    10 years of Tory austerity that came about as a result of Labour almost bankrupting the Country. People are not stupid, they have longer memories that Corbyn and Starmer gave them credit for. They also realised that in spite of all the hardship caused by the austerity measures, the alternative is a Labour Government who ridiculously wanted to go on a reckless spending spree by borrowing hundreds of billions more.
    Blaming Labour solely for what happened in 2008 is just as bonkers as blaming the what's in it for me party for the origin of the pandemic. If the Labour party was responsible for 2008 in any way it was for following deregulatory policies even more enthusiastically than the Thatcher/Major Governments did - the financial crash was down to failures of capitalism and libertarianism as bankers took advantage of freedoms caused by a worldwide roll back of regulation.

    Both Conservatives and Labour were united on what to do following the financial crash and I've never heard any tories saying that the y would have not brought in the policies Brown followed that caused the crash because they were were too left wing - they were right of centre policies which caused what happened in 2008.

    Coming up to date, goats said I would be upset today because of what's happening so far in the elections because Labour are doing poorly. While I'd say it's disappointing because I've nearly always voted Labour in my life, the truth is that, increasingly, my politics are first and foremost anti Conservative and I haven't voted Labour with any enthusiasm in ages.

    In the so called Tory landslide of 2019, there were, rounding down, 47 million people eligible to vote, 14 million, rounding up, of which voted Conservative. Therefore, out of eligible voters, more than two thirds did not vote Conservative. Of course, many of them would have been apathetic tories who were sure their party was going to win and there would have been Conservatives who would not have been able to vote for whatever reason. However, it's clearly true that far more people who had the right to vote did not feel they could vote Conservative than those who did.

    With our voting system, that always happens no matter who wins, but, as has been remarked already, with the main opposition party falling into the normal left v right infighting which some in it appear to think is the main reason for its existence, I believe there are an awful lot of people like me, who long for an electable and coherent alternative to the Conservatives that has a realistic chance of winning.

    The Labour party became an irrelevance in Scotland and still don't seem to have realised it yet and it's heading towards the same situation in the UK unless it realises that the real enemy are the lot who have formed the Government for almost thirty of the last forty years - if they cannot do that and prefer to continue rowing amongst themselves, then they're not worth saying.

  7. #47

    Re: Hammering For Labour In Hartlepool

    Quote Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY View Post
    The Labour spending plans supported by Cameron in opposition ?
    Cameron didn't only support the plans he/Tories said bankers (cause of the global crash) should get more freedom to act as they wanted. Austerity then slowed recovery and Brexit appears likely to slow recovery from pandemic as well.

    Austerity also caused greater wealth divide which then also made the pandemic much, much worse.

    That's not a three word, catchy slogan though so it won't cut through.

  8. #48

    Re: Hammering For Labour In Hartlepool

    Quote Originally Posted by blue matt View Post
    Labour have lived on the past for too long, many Labour voters voted for them as " my dad did " or " its what we vote around these parts ", voting day is very easy for them , Arrive, get ballot papers and look for labour, put cross in that box

    a political party cannot survive like that for long

    Voters actually do a little research these days, if a voter see's a party that they like the look of, they get the vote ( it could actually be the evil empire, the Tories ), the blind sheep like voter ( described above ) is on its way out
    And so what does a tory voter like about that party because, certainly on here, none of them ever talk about what makes them vote the way they do?

  9. #49

    Re: Hammering For Labour In Hartlepool

    Quote Originally Posted by dml1954 View Post
    10 years of Tory austerity that came about as a result of Labour almost bankrupting the Country. People are not stupid, they have longer memories that Corbyn and Starmer gave them credit for. They also realised that in spite of all the hardship caused by the austerity measures, the alternative is a Labour Government who ridiculously wanted to go on a reckless spending spree by borrowing hundreds of billions more.
    Part of Labour's problem is they never fully challenged this utterly bullshit narrative.
    Labour's spending did not cause the global financial crisis.
    Austerity was not required, it was what the tories wanted.
    Other countries didn't pursue an extreme ideological austerity, and emerged from the global financial crisis no differently than the UK, and in some areas the austerity is thought to have delayed the economy recovering.

    Because the outgoing Labour government never challenged that the tories were able to inflict horrific austerity on poor areas of the uk, and escape much of the blame for it - the blame falling on "labour spending" or immigration. Which is why we are where we are today.

  10. #50

    Re: Hammering For Labour In Hartlepool

    Quote Originally Posted by the other bob wilson View Post
    .....

    The Labour party became an irrelevance in Scotland and still don't seem to have realised it yet and it's heading towards the same situation in the UK unless it realises that the real enemy are the lot who have formed the Government for almost thirty of the last forty years - if they cannot do that and prefer to continue rowing amongst themselves, then they're not worth saying.
    i) I agree Labour party (and centre-left/left as a whole) needs to become more united

    ii) Tories have been in power for something like 85 of past 105 years. They're looking to secure that longer term with boundary changes and removal of caps on election spending. The UK is basically a one party-state and it could get much worse.

  11. #51

    Re: Hammering For Labour In Hartlepool

    Quote Originally Posted by Rjk View Post
    No I don't agree with that.
    There are just as many dyed in the wool tory areas as Labour.

    And I don't agree on research, especially into policies.
    I know several people who expressed very strong anti Corbyn opinions at the time of the last election, but couldn't have named a single one of his policies. And when some of the policies were suggested to them they thought they sounded good - but they still didn't like Corbyn.


    One person described him as a "nasty piece of work" without being able to explain why.
    Thats your opinion

    I stand by mine, " the Labour heartlands " have voters who will only vote Labour " cause its what we do around here " One was even on the news yesterday, a bloke in his 50's

    With the Internet, it has never been easier to find a parties policies, my daughter voted for the 1st time yesterday, she ( along with a few of her friends ) actually sat down and looked at what each candidate was saying, as it happens, its Tories or Lib Dems around here.
    She remembered a issue we had and the Local MP who went above and beyond to help us, so she voted for him ( good enough reason as any in a local imho )

  12. #52

    Re: Hammering For Labour In Hartlepool

    Quote Originally Posted by Tuerto View Post
    Where nothing changes, the poor get poorer, more homeless, more depression, more addiction, communities reliant on anti depressants, lack of real job prospects, break up of families etc.... You know the drill...All the things you care about, yet you want to implement a party that would do very little to improve these people's lives. You had better get a life times supply of blankets, soup and keep adding to the food banks, those numbers you provide on mental health are going to be useful as well if you believe that a centrist party will do anything to help the poor. Good luck mate.
    Gets out hammer

    Pins little bloke to the wall

    Bangs in nail

    Moderate , LEFT of centre

  13. #53

    Re: Hammering For Labour In Hartlepool

    Quote Originally Posted by blue matt View Post
    Thats your opinion

    I stand by mine, " the Labour heartlands " have voters who will only vote Labour " cause its what we do around here " One was even on the news yesterday, a bloke in his 50's

    With the Internet, it has never been easier to find a parties policies, my daughter voted for the 1st time yesterday, she ( along with a few of her friends ) actually sat down and looked at what each candidate was saying, as it happens, its Tories or Lib Dems around here.
    She remembered a issue we had and the Local MP who went above and beyond to help us, so she voted for him ( good enough reason as any in a local imho )
    You'd have to add that there is evidence that "£350 million a week for the NHS" was a pivotal slogan that caused people to vote one way despite i) Boris never wanting to stand next to the slogan because he knew it was rubbish and ii) it was always rubbish.

    Politics isn't the 90's anymore and people aren't blindly loyal to one party but that doesn't necessarily mean their research produces well-informed votes. They just have more information now.

  14. #54

    Re: Hammering For Labour In Hartlepool

    Quote Originally Posted by blue matt View Post
    Labour have lived on the past for too long, many Labour voters voted for them as " my dad did " or " its what we vote around these parts ", voting day is very easy for them , Arrive, get ballot papers and look for labour, put cross in that box

    a political party cannot survive like that for long

    Voters actually do a little research these days, if a voter see's a party that they like the look of, they get the vote ( it could actually be the evil empire, the Tories ), the blind sheep like voter ( described above ) is on its way out
    you realise that generations of people vote tory because.?.......daddy did

  15. #55

    Re: Hammering For Labour In Hartlepool

    Quote Originally Posted by the other bob wilson View Post
    And so what does a tory voter like about that party because, certainly on here, none of them ever talk about what makes them vote the way they do?
    They wouldn’t want to admit what they like about them.

  16. #56

    Re: Hammering For Labour In Hartlepool

    Quote Originally Posted by the other bob wilson View Post
    And so what does a tory voter like about that party because, certainly on here, none of them ever talk about what makes them vote the way they do?

    They have in the past Bob, we have seen them being called Idiots / Right wing racists, The baying Labour Mob are not a bunch to allow other views on here, Just look at the Brexit discussions for proof

  17. #57

    Re: Hammering For Labour In Hartlepool

    Quote Originally Posted by Rjk View Post
    Part of Labour's problem is they never fully challenged this utterly bullshit narrative.
    Labour's spending did not cause the global financial crisis.
    Austerity was not required, it was what the tories wanted.
    Other countries didn't pursue an extreme ideological austerity, and emerged from the global financial crisis no differently than the UK, and in some areas the austerity is thought to have delayed the economy recovering.

    Because the outgoing Labour government never challenged that the tories were able to inflict horrific austerity on poor areas of the uk, and escape much of the blame for it - the blame falling on "labour spending" or immigration. Which is why we are where we are today.
    Thats your opinion but it isn't mine and I suspect isn't the opinion of the millions of voters who have deserted Labour in the last few years. People realise that if you borrow billions of pounds to run a country, even at low rates of interest, at some point the money has to be paid back. How anyone can say austerity measure weren't needed at the time is beyond me but there you go.

  18. #58

    Re: Hammering For Labour In Hartlepool

    Quote Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY View Post
    you realise that generations of people vote tory because.?.......daddy did
    Yes im sure they do, which just cements my point

  19. #59

    Re: Hammering For Labour In Hartlepool

    Quote Originally Posted by surge View Post
    You'd have to add that there is evidence that "£350 million a week for the NHS" was a pivotal slogan that caused people to vote one way despite i) Boris never wanting to stand next to the slogan because he knew it was rubbish and ii) it was always rubbish.

    Politics isn't the 90's anymore and people aren't blindly loyal to one party but that doesn't necessarily mean their research produces well-informed votes. They just have more information now.
    Well, that bus slogan is well and truly in the past now, so how do you explain the millions of voters that have deserted Labour for Conservative in the last few years. No doubt you will find some other pathetic excuse to cast doubt upon the sanity of anyone who doesn't think or vote like you.

  20. #60

    Re: Hammering For Labour In Hartlepool

    Quote Originally Posted by the other bob wilson View Post
    Not really, something is clearly changing in this country and, taking party politics out of it, it seems very odd to me that maybe as much as millions of people are deciding to give a party that has not been in power for eleven years a kicking. Normal political behaviour would see a reaction against a party that has been in Government for more than a decade which has enforced a period of austerity that saw living standards drop for most people and yet there is no protest vote against that party and they’re thriving.

    There would be a boost for any Government that oversaw the launch a vaccine which proved successful, but there was no pandemic in 2019 when the combined Conservative and UKIP vote easily beat the Labour vote in Hartlepool - with UKIP out of the running this time, the result shouldn’t come as a surprise.

    I still think Brexit is playing a huge part in shaping how people vote, especially in the north of England and places like Wrexham, but, five years after the referendum, I’ve still not seen or read anything convincing as to why Labour are the party that is being blamed electorally for causing the situation. No doubt, this result will bring more pieces from analysts claiming to know exactly what is going on, but I’m not sure anyone does yet.
    just one point Bob, Welsh Labour have been in power for over 20 years, not a decade. You're quite right we need a change as living standards in Wales have fallen much further behind the rest of the UK.

    I'm sure that's what you meant, because taking party politics out of it, what you say about the Tories in the UK context most definitely applies to Welsh Labour, who really are bereft of any ideas on how to make Wales a better place.

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