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Thread: Hammering For Labour In Hartlepool

  1. #101
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    Re: Hammering For Labour In Hartlepool

    Quote Originally Posted by jon1959 View Post
    It helps to have an active and enthusiastic membership to campaign (phones, leaflets, doorstep, social media) in an election. It is not a good idea to attack and demoralise those members before an election so that a large proportion of them do not get involved. The hundreds of thousands speak to the millions. That's the way it works!
    that's fair enough, but if you cannot resonate with the electorate, then it really does mean nothing

    Quote Originally Posted by jon1959 View Post
    You are right - Labour is bereft of ideas. It wasn't a few years ago, and their ideas were popular. But what does Labour stand for under Starmer? Labour's campaign was ideas free. It had no identity. There was a thin pick and mix of national and local policies that totally failed to add up to a vision for the country or the local area.
    That's left wing politics in general though. The world has moved on from the 1970s. Tony blair understood this and modernised the labour movement. Result = outstanding success.

    Quote Originally Posted by jon1959 View Post
    The Anyone But Corbyn clique who now run the Labour Party really do need to 'step up to the plate'. Not for their own sakes, but for the millions who will pay the price for the Tory free run.
    you say this as if its a bad thing.

  2. #102

    Re: Hammering For Labour In Hartlepool

    Quote Originally Posted by xsnaggle View Post
    How can you state categorically that it was a lie when no one has yet had to prove it one way or the other.?
    Until the end of the transition period which was about 5 months ago we were still paying into the EU. You talk as if we haven't done so for years . JOHNSON has said the NHS will get whatever money it needs to put things in order . I recall a figure of £1 billion being mentioned. That will be 3 years of 350 million . If and when it doesn't get it then we can say it was a lie but not yet. Don't make things up and try to sell them as fact.... again
    The bus said £350m a week not £350m a year.

  3. #103
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    Re: Hammering For Labour In Hartlepool

    Quote Originally Posted by chris lee View Post
    There are lots of reasons, why one would vote for the way they do (tory) and often fairly uncontroversial.
    - Lower taxes
    No. since 2010 the Tory government has collected more in taxes as a percentage of GDP than any other before it. It really is a myth that the Tories are the party of low taxes. Don't be fooled by headline rates.

    Quote Originally Posted by chris lee View Post
    - strong stance against illegal immigration
    marvellous, lets ignore the fact immigration is actually good for the UK
    Quote Originally Posted by chris lee View Post
    - Less regulation for the self employed
    perhaps you can have a word with the DWP and HMRC as they haven't read the memo. There is more bureaucracy for the self-employed than ever before.
    Quote Originally Posted by chris lee View Post
    - more business friendly
    possibly. The jury is out

    Quote Originally Posted by chris lee View Post
    - Politics of aspiration
    agreed

    Quote Originally Posted by chris lee View Post
    - Competition in education
    whilst this is a good thing, i can't see why we cannot fund education so everyone has an Eton/Harrow type of education paid for by the state.

    Quote Originally Posted by chris lee View Post
    - Perceived to be more on the 'side' of freedom of speech
    perception doesn't mean fact. This Tory government have clamped down on a lot of our digital freedoms

    I am not saying I agree or support all the above talking points, but I am trying to display a general theme, that surely you can see why a local business man or self-employed builder who can afford to send their kids to a private school would vote conservative, without necessarily being an evil person.[/QUOTE]

  4. #104

    Re: Hammering For Labour In Hartlepool

    Quote Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY View Post
    Huge support for far right parties in Oldham, Burnley , Bradford , Rochdale and massive change in previous Labour voting areas to conservative or further right

    English Defence League , white , working class football fans

    People arrested for racially aggravated public order offences don't tend to come from cyncoed and rhiwbina

    Bernard Manning

    Roy Chubby Brown

    The black guy at work , we call him chalkie , its only a joke
    Do some reading, take a look who has defeated fascism throughout the centuries, then ask yourself why racism and fascism rises in popularity amongst white, disengaged working class people.

  5. #105

    Re: Hammering For Labour In Hartlepool

    Quote Originally Posted by dml1954 View Post
    Dont get your argument. Conservatives got over 42% of vote in 2019, so 58% didn’t vote for them. Labour got over 32% of vote, so 68% didn't vote for them. What does that prove, apart from more people didn't vote for Labour than didn't vote for Conservatives.
    I was talking about the eligible vote (including people who didn't vote). Things like the votes to impeach Trump needed a two thirds majority (66 per cent) to be carry and yet both Conservative and Labour Governments have been given what is virtually absolute power when less than one third of the eligible voters have backed them.

  6. #106

    Re: Hammering For Labour In Hartlepool

    We're 11 years into a Tory government but somehow it's seen as completely separate to what came before (spoiler alert: in some ways it is and in some big ways it's not) whereas Labour is seen as either extension of Blair by those who don't like Blair or an extension of Corbyn by those who don't like Corbyn.

    That's a massive issue for Labour and a massive win for Tories.

  7. #107

    Talking Re: Hammering For Labour In Hartlepool

    Quote Originally Posted by Feedback View Post
    No. since 2010 the Tory government has collected more in taxes as a percentage of GDP than any other before it. It really is a myth that the Tories are the party of low taxes. Don't be fooled by headline rates.


    marvellous, lets ignore the fact immigration is actually good for the UK

    perhaps you can have a word with the DWP and HMRC as they haven't read the memo. There is more bureaucracy for the self-employed than ever before.

    possibly. The jury is out


    agreed


    whilst this is a good thing, i can't see why we cannot fund education so everyone has an Eton/Harrow type of education paid for by the state.


    perception doesn't mean fact. This Tory government have clamped down on a lot of our digital freedoms

    I am not saying I agree or support all the above talking points, but I am trying to display a general theme, that surely you can see why a local business man or self-employed builder who can afford to send their kids to a private school would vote conservative, without necessarily being an evil person.
    [/QUOTE]

    I knew when writing that list, each point would be picked apart
    to be fair I could have done that too
    and could also do it for every parties 'perceived' standing blocks.

    The point I was trying to make is not to provide evidence of everything the tory's have done good or bad, it was to provide a more holistic viewpoint, that being a conservative, believing in conservative philosophy, and believing the benefits of small government policy outweigh big government, Are entirely legitimate and respectful viewpoints, and if you are a advocate of that kind of politics then surely voting for a conservative government in the UK is not a totally surprising or evil thing to do.

  8. #108

    Re: Hammering For Labour In Hartlepool

    Quote Originally Posted by Tuerto View Post
    Do some reading, take a look who has defeated fascism throughout the centuries, then ask yourself why racism and fascism rises in popularity amongst white, disengaged working class people.
    Never mind the history books and stories of the battle of cable street

    Who gave the English defence league a kicking in Cardiff?

    It was middle class students with a helping hand from a few hundred docks lads

    I didn't see mobs of white working class people out that day from the valleys and estates of Cardiff to tackle the fascists

    You are living in the clouds and in a utopia

  9. #109
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    Re: Hammering For Labour In Hartlepool

    Quote Originally Posted by chris lee View Post

    I knew when writing that list, each point would be picked apart
    to be fair I could have done that too
    and could also do it for every parties 'perceived' standing blocks.

    The point I was trying to make is not to provide evidence of everything the tory's have done good or bad, it was to provide a more holistic viewpoint, that being a conservative, believing in conservative philosophy, and believing the benefits of small government policy outweigh big government, Are entirely legitimate and respectful viewpoints, and if you are a advocate of that kind of politics then surely voting for a conservative government in the UK is not a totally surprising or evil thing to do.
    I agree.

    you can have conservative values and vote for the Tories, it does not make you a bad person, you simply believe the best way for the nation to succeed overall is smaller government and more personal responsibility. Those who support Labour believe in a larger government and more collective responsibility. there is no right or wrong way, and both approaches have their merits and drawbacks.

  10. #110

    Re: Hammering For Labour In Hartlepool

    Quote Originally Posted by chris lee View Post

    I knew when writing that list, each point would be picked apart
    to be fair I could have done that too
    and could also do it for every parties 'perceived' standing blocks.

    The point I was trying to make is not to provide evidence of everything the tory's have done good or bad, it was to provide a more holistic viewpoint, that being a conservative, believing in conservative philosophy, and believing the benefits of small government policy outweigh big government, Are entirely legitimate and respectful viewpoints, and if you are a advocate of that kind of politics then surely voting for a conservative government in the UK is not a totally surprising or evil thing to do.
    What part of Boris Johnson's government is small or fiscally responsible? In past couple of months they've talked about interfering into private institutions like football clubs and pubs as well as public funded ones like National Trust and Channel 4 and they literally won an election on reducing size of the economy. This is not a (small c) conservative government and proper conservative voters are being put off and replaced by new voters.

  11. #111

    Re: Hammering For Labour In Hartlepool

    Quote Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY View Post
    Never mind the history books and stories of the battle of cable street

    Who gave the English defence league a kicking in Cardiff?

    It was middle class students with a helping hand from a few hundred docks lads

    I didn't see mobs of white working class people out that day from the valleys and estates of Cardiff to tackle the fascists

    You are living in the clouds and in a utopia
    Sludge in Anecdotes shocker! Don't suppose I can argue with that when every inch of history tells us that the workers of the world have defeated Fascism time after time. You really need to think before you answer.

  12. #112

    Re: Hammering For Labour In Hartlepool

    Quote Originally Posted by surge View Post
    We're 11 years into a Tory government but somehow it's seen as completely separate to what came before (spoiler alert: in some ways it is and in some big ways it's not) whereas Labour is seen as either extension of Blair by those who don't like Blair or an extension of Corbyn by those who don't like Corbyn.

    That's a massive issue for Labour and a massive win for Tories.
    I can't say whether this is definitely true or not, but I would say that it's believable - on the radio this morning someone was saying that they showed a sample of voters some of the Labour parties policies at the last election and they got an almost unanimously positive response, but that changed drastically when it was revealed Corbyn's Labour party that was behind the proposals.

  13. #113

    Re: Hammering For Labour In Hartlepool

    Quote Originally Posted by the other bob wilson View Post
    ....................... on the radio this morning someone was saying that they showed a sample of voters some of the Labour parties policies at the last election and they got an almost unanimously positive response
    Probably true. But the problem is that nobody believed Labour could deliver them.

  14. #114

    Re: Hammering For Labour In Hartlepool

    Quote Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY View Post
    I think I need to nail this into your head

    I want a moderate , left of centre alternative to the tories
    Tony Blair type politics then .

    Labour made a huge error rejecting all his policies and changes

    They should have gone for David Miliband and they'd be in a better place now , probably still in Europe as he would have shown more appetite for the remain campaign than Corbyn , and beat Cameron and May

  15. #115
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    Re: Hammering For Labour In Hartlepool

    Quote Originally Posted by lardy View Post
    The bus said £350m a week not £350m a year.
    Well spotted

  16. #116

    Re: Hammering For Labour In Hartlepool

    Quote Originally Posted by life on mars View Post
    Tony Blair type politics then .

    Labour made a huge error rejecting all his policies and changes

    They should have gone for David Miliband and they'd be in a better place now , probably still in Europe as he would have shown more appetite for the remain campaign than Corbyn , and beat Cameron and May
    Probably right there, it sucks there’s such a limited choice. We should have more than two parties to choose from and certain policy should be set in stone so not messed with every 4 years etc...health, schools etc..

  17. #117

    Re: Hammering For Labour In Hartlepool

    I voted for Starmer in the leadership election, but I wish i hadn't now. Labour have to aim at Boris as PM , Rees-Mogg, Patel and the others and still cock it up. But I will stay loyal to my beliefs.

  18. #118

    Re: Hammering For Labour In Hartlepool

    The Tories introduced Austerity which massively impacted the working class. We’ve got the worst State Pensions in Europe and are made to work longer. They cut police, shut fire stations and cut fire fighters. Underfunded the NHS/local services, refuse to give health care workers the pay rise they so deserve. Funnelled billions of pounds into the pockets of their donors. The pandemic death toll has been horrific and front line staff weren’t given the PPE they needed which resulted in 300 plus of them dying. And as for that pathetic big lump of lard Johnson who whilst his wife was having treatment for cancer was shagging his mistress in the marital home and who won’t even admit how many kids he has. The corruption he’s so obviously involved with, I could go on... I’ve tried to get my head around why anyone would still vote for them, I really have I just don’t get it.

  19. #119
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    Re: Hammering For Labour In Hartlepool

    Labour lost control of Sheffield Council - lost 5 seats to Greens and 3 to LibDems.

    Tories have their first council seat in 20 years (they were extinct before yesterday, and lost their last MP in 1997).

    UKIP/Brexit collapse has helped Tories and LibDems; left disillusionment with Starmer's Labour has helped the Greens.

    Surely time for Corbyn to step down as ex Labour Leader and accept full responsibility?

  20. #120

    Re: Hammering For Labour In Hartlepool

    Quote Originally Posted by jon1959 View Post
    Labour lost control of Sheffield Council - lost 5 seats to Greens and 3 to LibDems.

    Tories have their first council seat in 20 years (they were extinct before yesterday, and lost their last MP in 1997).

    UKIP/Brexit collapse has helped Tories and LibDems; left disillusionment with Starmer's Labour has helped the Greens.

    Surely time for Corbyn to step down as ex Labour Leader and accept full responsibility?

  21. #121

    Re: Hammering For Labour In Hartlepool

    Reading some of the posts on this thread typify why the working class have deserted Labour in droves.

    Not only has it taken them for granted, many of its most vociferous followers openly castigate them.

  22. #122

    Re: Hammering For Labour In Hartlepool

    Quote Originally Posted by Wash DC Blue View Post
    Reading some of the posts on this thread typify why the working class have deserted Labour in droves.

    Not only has it taken them for granted, many of its most vociferous followers openly castigate them.
    For different reasons, some want a real Left Wing Party, others want it Tory Lite

  23. #123

    Re: Hammering For Labour In Hartlepool

    Quote Originally Posted by ninian opinian View Post
    The Tories introduced Austerity which massively impacted the working class. We’ve got the worst State Pensions in Europe and are made to work longer. They cut police, shut fire stations and cut fire fighters. Underfunded the NHS/local services, refuse to give health care workers the pay rise they so deserve. Funnelled billions of pounds into the pockets of their donors. The pandemic death toll has been horrific and front line staff weren’t given the PPE they needed which resulted in 300 plus of them dying. And as for that pathetic big lump of lard Johnson who whilst his wife was having treatment for cancer was shagging his mistress in the marital home and who won’t even admit how many kids he has. The corruption he’s so obviously involved with, I could go on... I’ve tried to get my head around why anyone would still vote for them, I really have I just don’t get it.
    Yes, it seems one party gets forgiven everything and another one forgiven nothing.

  24. #124

    Re: Hammering For Labour In Hartlepool

    Quote Originally Posted by Wash DC Blue View Post
    Reading some of the posts on this thread typify why the working class have deserted Labour in droves.

    Not only has it taken them for granted, many of its most vociferous followers openly castigate them.
    i) Clever use of most there. Not most of it's followers but most vociferous followers and still not sure that is true.

    ii) The working class has clearly changed within the last 20 years. Hartlepool may be traditionally working class but they've aged now so many of Boris' new voters are no longer working/working full time and have more capital (home ownership) than the new working class. The new working class work in unstable jobs and live in rented accommodation for most of their twenties and still generally vote centre-left/left parties.

    iii)
    Speaking in Hartlepool, Boris Johnson has said it was "thanks to Brexit" that the government was able to pursue freeports, its own vaccine policy, and to fight off the European Super League. As far as I know, none of those are true.

    https://twitter.com/peterwalker99/st...66920697925634
    I think Hungary is an example of an EU nation who has followed own vaccine strategy; freeports were always allowed within the EU (there is some contention whether Boris and EU are describing a different system under the same name); and Tories did nothing to fight off the super-league as it was threat of sponsors and outrage of fans. Fan ownership fought off the super league in Germany.

  25. #125

    Re: Hammering For Labour In Hartlepool

    Quote Originally Posted by ninian opinian View Post
    The Tories introduced Austerity which massively impacted the working class. We’ve got the worst State Pensions in Europe and are made to work longer. They cut police, shut fire stations and cut fire fighters. Underfunded the NHS/local services, refuse to give health care workers the pay rise they so deserve. Funnelled billions of pounds into the pockets of their donors. The pandemic death toll has been horrific and front line staff weren’t given the PPE they needed which resulted in 300 plus of them dying. And as for that pathetic big lump of lard Johnson who whilst his wife was having treatment for cancer was shagging his mistress in the marital home and who won’t even admit how many kids he has. The corruption he’s so obviously involved with, I could go on... I’ve tried to get my head around why anyone would still vote for them, I really have I just don’t get it.
    Your attitude and opinions are a golden example of why Labour is doing so badly and the left wing is basically unelectable. According to you, anybody who dared vote Conservative is stark staring bonkers. Well, thats over 14 million people at the last election. You need to look a bit closer to home if you want to understand why people vote Conservative - its because the alternative is even more horrific to many people.

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