Hammering For Labour In Hartlepool

[surge]

I think one of Labour's problems is the desire to have the "perfect" Labour party before being able to compete for government whereas one of the strongest points of the Tory party is that they get into government then disagree behind closed doors.

So many hot-takes today on what Labour did wrong and where it should go. Keir was promoted as the unifying candidate between center and left of the party and tasked with making it a more responsible party ready to lead - that still needs to happen.

[ninian opinian]

Probably because they don't share your views. As your name says, it's an 'opinion'.

The only opinion though is the one I made about giving health care workers a pay rise. Am I wrong on anything else?

[A Quiet Monkfish]

The only opinion though is the one I made about giving health care workers a pay rise. Am I wrong on anything else?

Not saying you are 'wrong' on anything. But I was picking up your comment - that others have also made here - that they don't understand why anyone would vote conservative. That argument could cut both ways. There's no right or wrong, or good or bad party, it's just a personal choice.

[life on mars]

Not saying you are 'wrong' on anything. But I was picking up your comment - that others have also made here - that they don't understand why anyone would vote conservative. That argument could cut both ways. There's no right or wrong, or good or bad party, it's just a personal choice.

Indeed , it's called free speech and democracy.

[tforturton]

All these people on here, ranting about how they hate the Tories, and why Labour should be doing better, all seem to be missing the point. And also, they're not asking the obvious question - why did the Conservatives win Hartlepool? Why did the majority of voters put their X in the Conservative box? Those people obviously can see something that the Labour Party leader(s) can't.

One thing they don't care about is the colour of the Downing Street wallpaper. It's totally irrelevant.
What they have seen is that after years in the political wilderness, Labour are still like a chicken with no head. They have no ideas, and no direction. No-one knows what they stand for any more. If the Guardian can see it, so can everyone else.
They've also seen the benefits of having a Tory MP or Mayor. Fair or not, your constituency will reap the benefits of voting blue.

I've said it before, but Wales has suffered from having a Labour administration under a Tory UK government. When Labour was in power, they took Wales for granted. When the Conservatives are in power, they can afford to ignore Wales, and let the Senedd take the blame. Now, if the Welsh voted in the Tories, then you'd see the money start to arrive.

[ninian opinian]

All these people on here, ranting about how they hate the Tories, and why Labour should be doing better, all seem to be missing the point. And also, they're not asking the obvious question - why did the Conservatives win Hartlepool? Why did the majority of voters put their X in the Conservative box? Those people obviously can see something that the Labour Party leader(s) can't.

One thing they don't care about is the colour of the Downing Street wallpaper. It's totally irrelevant.
What they have seen is that after years in the political wilderness, Labour are still like a chicken with no head. They have no ideas, and no direction. No-one knows what they stand for any more. If the Guardian can see it, so can everyone else.
They've also seen the benefits of having a Tory MP or Mayor. Fair or not, your constituency will reap the benefits of voting blue.

I've said it before, but Wales has suffered from having a Labour administration under a Tory UK government. When Labour was in power, they took Wales for granted. When the Conservatives are in power, they can afford to ignore Wales, and let the Senedd take the blame. Now, if the Welsh voted in the Tories, then you'd see the money start to arrive.

So basically what you’re saying is that the Tories are a bunch of bastards who will only look after those who vote for them. And there was me thinking we were all equal in the good old United Kingdom. PS it’s not wallpaper let’s call it what it is and that’s corruption.

[the other bob wilson]

All these people on here, ranting about how they hate the Tories, and why Labour should be doing better, all seem to be missing the point. And also, they're not asking the obvious question - why did the Conservatives win Hartlepool? Why did the majority of voters put their X in the Conservative box? Those people obviously can see something that the Labour Party leader(s) can't.

One thing they don't care about is the colour of the Downing Street wallpaper. It's totally irrelevant.
What they have seen is that after years in the political wilderness, Labour are still like a chicken with no head. They have no ideas, and no direction. No-one knows what they stand for any more. If the Guardian can see it, so can everyone else.
They've also seen the benefits of having a Tory MP or Mayor. Fair or not, your constituency will reap the benefits of voting blue.

I've said it before, but Wales has suffered from having a Labour administration under a Tory UK government. When Labour was in power, they took Wales for granted. When the Conservatives are in power, they can afford to ignore Wales, and let the Senedd take the blame. Now, if the Welsh voted in the Tories, then you'd see the money start to arrive.

So if the what’s in it for me party has all this money to throw about, why the ten years of austerity which they, and plenty of others it would appear, have decided to forget about?

[Elwood Blues]

So if the what’s in it for me party has all this money to throw about, why the ten years of austerity which they, and plenty of others it would appear, have decided to forget about?

AS Harold Wilson is often quoted as saying "A week is a long time in politics" BOb

10 years is a Millenium!

Politics have changed greatly since 2010 particularly in the last year. The Tory party had already started to say that we would not be returning to austerity and the pandemic has now accelerated this.

I think it is now recognised that in an age of very low interest rate increasing the National Debt is not such a problem as it was when interest rates were higher. If I remember correctly back in 2010 when the Government embarked on its austerity program (which to be fair Labour were also going to do except we now of course have no idea whether it would have been as strict or lasted as long as the Tory version) the thought was that the low interest rates would soon start to go up making too large a National Debt an expensive proposition.

Thus the plan was to decrease the annual deficit so as to make the debt growth smaller.

The perceived wisdom now is that interest rates have remained low and are likely to do so for a while so we should take advantage of them and borrow more now.

Also as Lord Finkelstein the Times columnist said the strength of the Conservative Party over the years is it ability to adapt itself to changing circumstances. Thus it sees no dichotomy in championing austerity 10 years ago and splashing the cash now.

On the hand when Labour has to change course it is far more difficult for them to do

[the other bob wilson]

AS Harold Wilson is often quoted as saying "A week is a long time in politics" BOb

10 years is a Millenium!

Politics have changed greatly since 2010 particularly in the last year. The Tory party had already started to say that we would not be returning to austerity and the pandemic has now accelerated this.

I think it is now recognised that in an age of very low interest rate increasing the National Debt is not such a problem as it was when interest rates were higher. If I remember correctly back in 2010 when the Government embarked on its austerity program (which to be fair Labour were also going to do except we now of course have no idea whether it would have been as strict or lasted as long as the Tory version) the thought was that the low interest rates would soon start to go up making too large a National Debt an expensive proposition.

Thus the plan was to decrease the annual deficit so as to make the debt growth smaller.

The perceived wisdom now is that interest rates have remained low and are likely to do so for a while so we should take advantage of them and borrow more now.

Also as Lord Finkelstein the Times columnist said the strength of the Conservative Party over the years is it ability to adapt itself to changing circumstances. Thus it sees no dichotomy in championing austerity 10 years ago and splashing the cash now.

On the hand when Labour has to change course it is far more difficult for them to do

As I said in a previous post, I haven't voted Labour with any enthusiasm in ages and my politics are far more anti Conservative now than pro Labour - when I vote for them it's much more to do with a feeling of stopping a Tory win in my constituency than any great expectation of what Labour will do.

You talk about "perceived wisdom" and columns by Tory hacks about changing to adapt itself to changing circumstances, I prefer to see a party without principles shifting their position to cling to power at all costs. That said, have they really moved on from austerity? Much of the reaction I saw to the last budget suggested not. While I accept that the pandemic has changed things enormously, we've still set for the same pay freezes and cuts in spending that we had when "we were all in it together" back in 2020. Incidentally, austerity under the Conservatives didn't begin and end in 2010 - I wasn't quite accurate when I said ten years of austerity, but it was nine and a half years of it from May 2010 to December 2019, because I refuse to accept that the May Government had ditched that policy.

Therefore, we aren't talking ten years ago, we're talking less than eighteen months ago and now we have the Chancellor talking again of the need for cuts and yet, despite the zig zagging which saw them talking about using the sort of spending policies supported by Labour and other opposition parties in the second half of the last decade, their support remains constant.

After the Senedd election results, we're seeing the old claims about people voting for anyone or anything as long as they're wearing a red rosette given an airing and yet the irony is that, so often, the people who use that analogy feel the exact same way about anyone or anything wearing a blue rosette.

[Elwood Blues]

As I said in a previous post, I haven't voted Labour with any enthusiasm in ages and my politics are far more anti Conservative now than pro Labour - when I vote for them it's much more to do with a feeling of stopping a Tory win in my constituency than any great expectation of what Labour will do.

You talk about "perceived wisdom" and columns by Tory hacks about changing to adapt itself to changing circumstances, I prefer to see a party without principles shifting their position to cling to power at all costs. That said, have they really moved on from austerity? Much of the reaction I saw to the last budget suggested not. While I accept that the pandemic has changed things enormously, we've still set for the same pay freezes and cuts in spending that we had when "we were all in it together" back in 2020. Incidentally, austerity under the Conservatives didn't begin and end in 2010 - I wasn't quite accurate when I said ten years of austerity, but it was nine and a half years of it from May 2010 to December 2019, because I refuse to accept that the May Government had ditched that policy.

Therefore, we aren't talking ten years ago, we're talking less than eighteen months ago and now we have the Chancellor talking again of the need for cuts and yet, despite the zig zagging which saw them talking about using the sort of spending policies supported by Labour and other opposition parties in the second half of the last decade, their support remains constant.

After the Senedd election results, we're seeing the old claims about people voting for anyone or anything as long as they're wearing a red rosette given an airing and yet the irony is that, so often, the people who use that analogy feel the exact same way about anyone or anything wearing a blue rosette.

A political party without principles?

Well I never did!

[A Quiet Monkfish]

AS Harold Wilson is often quoted as saying "A week is a long time in politics" BOb

10 years is a Millenium!

Politics have changed greatly since 2010 particularly in the last year. The Tory party had already started to say that we would not be returning to austerity and the pandemic has now accelerated this.

I think it is now recognised that in an age of very low interest rate increasing the National Debt is not such a problem as it was when interest rates were higher. If I remember correctly back in 2010 when the Government embarked on its austerity program (which to be fair Labour were also going to do except we now of course have no idea whether it would have been as strict or lasted as long as the Tory version) the thought was that the low interest rates would soon start to go up making too large a National Debt an expensive proposition.

Thus the plan was to decrease the annual deficit so as to make the debt growth smaller.

The perceived wisdom now is that interest rates have remained low and are likely to do so for a while so we should take advantage of them and borrow more now.

Also as Lord Finkelstein the Times columnist said the strength of the Conservative Party over the years is it ability to adapt itself to changing circumstances. Thus it sees no dichotomy in championing austerity 10 years ago and splashing the cash now.

On the hand when Labour has to change course it is far more difficult for them to do

I think reducing the National Debt has recently become something the Govt. - along with many other Govts. - isn't going to attempt. 10/12 yrs. of 'austerity' didn't reduce the Debt at all, and with it now standing at £2.2 trillion it's here to stay, much like Japan. The bigger problem is the £6.5 trillion liability for State Pensions. If you add Government-funded public sector pensions, there's another £5 trillion. Interest rates aren't going north for a long, long time.

[LeningradCowboy]

https://inews.co.uk/opinion/hartlepo...cceeded-991356

The reality about Hartlepool that Labour can’t face is that perhaps it didn’t fail – the Tories succeeded

[life on mars]

All these people on here, ranting about how they hate the Tories, and why Labour should be doing better, all seem to be missing the point. And also, they're not asking the obvious question - why did the Conservatives win Hartlepool? Why did the majority of voters put their X in the Conservative box? Those people obviously can see something that the Labour Party leader(s) can't.

One thing they don't care about is the colour of the Downing Street wallpaper. It's totally irrelevant.
What they have seen is that after years in the political wilderness, Labour are still like a chicken with no head. They have no ideas, and no direction. No-one knows what they stand for any more. If the Guardian can see it, so can everyone else.
They've also seen the benefits of having a Tory MP or Mayor. Fair or not, your constituency will reap the benefits of voting blue.

I've said it before, but Wales has suffered from having a Labour administration under a Tory UK government. When Labour was in power, they took Wales for granted. When the Conservatives are in power, they can afford to ignore Wales, and let the Senedd take the blame. Now, if the Welsh voted in the Tories, then you'd see the money start to arrive.

Instead of trying to reinvent Tory sleaze Labour should have taken a bolder vision to the electorate around opportunity post Brexit instead of negativity , attacks social care funding via tax increases . That would have played out better that wallpapergate which appeared as a weak pre election tool .

Seems no 10 refurbishment is not a new story :

https://www.theguardian.com/politics....politicalnews

[surge]

Instead of trying to reinvent Tory sleaze Labour should have taken a bolder vision to the electorate around opportunity post Brexit instead of negativity , attacks social care funding via tax increases . That would have played out better that wallpapergate which appeared as a weak pre election tool .

Seems no 10 refurbishment is not a new story :

https://www.theguardian.com/politics....politicalnews

I hope people realise that the big thing is that Boris now owes someone unknown a favour and we don't know what they want to do with it. And that rather than quickly explain Boris would rather taxpayer's money be spent on an inquiry.

Tories acting irresponsibly and Labour having a bold, positive vision - not one or the other.

[llan bluebird]

Labour are fighting elections with 30 year old tactics. Mandy, Brown and Blair may have been bright new things copying the Clinton campaign with the reliance of focus group. In the meantime the tories have learnt from Cummings with all the Cambridge analytica shenanigans.

The left right thing went 15 years ago, the working class are just about surviving, there is little organised labour outside the public sector. Much of the working class has cottoned on to labours middle class bourgeois takeover. Very few unions regional or national reps make it to MP's any more, loads form Oxbridge P.E.P graduates, making it to SPAG's then parachuted into "safe seats". Yes the tories do the same thing, but have never pretended to be any different.

Labour are seen as the woke party, loads of middle class puritans antagonizing all those just trying to make end meet.

The working class suddenly don't believe in the tories, they just have totally given up on labour. The Jocks have the SNP, they don't have to vote for independence if it happens. Wales has the valleys with the pathological hatred of the tories and Plaid are a party for farmers and nationalist ideologs 120 years too late. The libs/green are just another version of Starmers labour.

No idea what labour do next.

[surge]

.....

Labour are seen as the woke party, loads of middle class puritans antagonizing all those just trying to make end meet.

No idea what labour do next.

FYI, even Andrew Neil (he of GB News fame) has said he agrees with woke'ness - a term that refers to awareness of issues that concern social justice and racial justice. His issue seems to be minimal: how it's being employed by some.

[J R Hartley]

Sludge and his ilk are the reason for Labours demise. They took the party too far left for the average Labour voter.


The party is now in chaos and divided.

I voted Plaid. I can’t stand the labour candidate in Merthyr.

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Sludge and his ilk are the reason for Labours demise. They took the party too far left for the average Labour voter.


The party is now in chaos and divided.

yeah right

I hated corbyn , livingstone , Abbott etc

We need a left of centre party to defeat the tories

The Labour Party is toxic now , incredible when you look at the conservatives and what they get up to but hey ho

Wales free of tory power ?

Its a good night for me

God bless Wrexham , top lads taking it to the fascists in Manchester and keeping out the tories tonight

God bless em

[J R Hartley]

The Labour candidate from Merthyr is from Bristol. No connection to the town. Voted against free meals for vulnerable in this pandemic. In one of the most impoverished areas in the country. So clearly she doesn’t understand the area she’s meant to represent. In fact in her victory speech she thanked the people of Merthyr and Tydfil. I ****ing despair.

[goats]

The Labour candidate from Merthyr is from Bristol. No connection to the town. Voted against free meals for vulnerable in this pandemic. In one of the most impoverished areas in the country. So clearly she doesn’t understand the area she’s meant to represent. In fact in her victory speech she thanked the people of Merthyr and Tydfil. I ****ing despair.

My god....unbelievable Jeff

[J R Hartley]

yeah right

I hated corbyn , livingstone , Abbott etc

We need a left of centre party to defeat the tories

The Labour Party is toxic now , incredible when you look at the conservatives and what they get up to but hey ho

Wales free of tory power ?

Its a good night for me

God bless Wrexham , top lads taking it to the fascists in Manchester and keeping out the tories tonight

God bless em

You are as left wing as Chris Waddle old sport

[Tuerto]

You are as left wing as Chris Waddle old sport

He really isn't.

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

You are as left wing as Chris Waddle old sport

Wrexham , always there when it matters

You are wasting your vote with plaid sonny

[J R Hartley]

Wrexham , always there when it matters

You are wasting your vote with plaid sonny

My vote is my vote. I stay true to myself. If you can’t vote Plaid in a vote for the Senedd then when can you vote them? The only party with Welsh interests at heart. I have an irrational hatred for the self serving Labour Senedd candidate in my area and I will never vote the Tories so I’m snookered either way. It is what it is.

BOWDEN OUT

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

He really isn't.

Tony benn talked a good game

But it was all talk

I am chuffed the tories are not governing Wales tonight

You are still trying to sell copies of socialist worker

Its fun , but gets you nowhere