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Thread: Palestine Israel

  1. #21

    Re: Palestine Israel

    [QUOTE=life on mars;5192113]
    Quote Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY View Post
    Its like trying to beat up a giant when you are 5 foot tall , blind and have one hand tied behind your back

    Since the state of Israel was formed more and more land has been stolen off the arabs

    I would be fecking pissed off if my new next door neighbour kept moving the fence further into my garden

    And all my other neighbours just stood by and watched

    Which is exactly what is happening[/QUOT


    Would you fire 1, 500 rockets at the neighbours though knowing what the response would be to the innocent civilians living around the launch sites ??

    Who funds this stuff ??
    Iran are the backers of Hamas.Hamas's aim is to destroy Israel and create an islamic republic,so there is no way Israel can bring them to the negotiating table.

  2. #22

    Re: Palestine Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by goats View Post
    Iíve never really met many Israelis, but when I was travelling around India 15 yrs ago I met a few. They barely stray from their own kind and didnít mix with us much. Of the few conversations about whatís going on now most seemed adamant about the land they already had and a couple said they needed to take out the Gaza Strip to rid it of hamas. Looks like that could happen now. I think itís like Spain to them, they all go particularly after the two years national service they have to do. Strange folks but some stunning ladies amongst them.
    I met a group while in Sydney in 93, i have never met such a group of arrogant self entitled people in my life, they looked down on everyone, made no difference if they were Europeans, Australians or Asians, i couldn't stand them, one of our group got friendly with one of the girls so we somewhat got linked that way, I then met a Lebanese girl ( well her parents were ) and to say they she hated them was a understatement ( understandable ) so that was my excuse to tell them to never speak to me again

  3. #23

    Re: Palestine Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by blue matt View Post
    I met a group while in Sydney in 93, i have never met such a group of arrogant self entitled people in my life, they looked down on everyone, made no difference if they were Europeans, Australians or Asians, i couldn't stand them, one of our group got friendly with one of the girls so we somewhat got linked that way, I then met a Lebanese girl ( well her parents were ) and to say they she hated them was a understatement ( understandable ) so that was my excuse to tell them to never speak to me again
    I think it's important not to generalise too much.

    Jewish people are some of the loveliest and funniest people on the planet.

    Look at our very own Elliott Cantor, a lovely guy.

    Also, at famous Jewish people like Larry David, Bernie Saunders, Jason Alexander etc... all very nice, generous and funny people.

    It's important not to conflate Jewish people with the actions of the Israeli Government. Sanders in particular is very outspoken against the current Israeli regime.

  4. #24

    Re: Palestine Israel

    It's a horrible situation, and difficult to see how it will ever be resolved.
    In my mind they should never have set it up where they did, but now it is there it cannot be undone.

    The people in charge on both sides are murderous extremists, but it is easy to see how the far right gets traction in extreme circumstances. If all of us were born in Gaza then a significant number would be supporting Hamas, and likewise with Israel and their military actions. The average age in Gaza is 17, and so many of them will have personally known people who have been murdered by the Israeli state.


    What is the end point of all this?

    Th current cycle of violence merely fuels more terrorists in Gaza and more harsh reprisals from Israel. Perhaps that suits Israel, as it gives them reasons to continue to expand into Palestinian land. But what happens when they have it all?
    Even considering jus the land they already de-facto control there are more arab people living there than Jewish - what is the long term strategy there?
    Bring them all under the umbrella of one nation and it is no longer a Jewish state - while that wouldn't be a problem for me, you cannot imagine that the people in Israel would allow that.
    So wht are the other options? they are all monstrous.
    Continue to allow the Arabic people to live there as second class citizens, unable to vote? that doesn't seem like a stable long term solution - it would inevitably lead to uprisings and bloodshed
    Deport all of the Arabic people?
    Worse?

    And you can ask the same of the Gaza terrorists - what is their ultimate endpoint - clearly they cannot win any direct conflict with Israel, so will they just keep this cycle of violence going forever? If the population weren't so pressured and the people lived more comfortable lives then you wuld imagine that support for the far right would drop off rapidly - after all there's no reason to think they are any different deep down than you or I.


    Th whole think is just so depressing.

  5. #25

    Re: Palestine Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by Rjk View Post
    It's a horrible situation, and difficult to see how it will ever be resolved.
    In my mind they should never have set it up where they did, but now it is there it cannot be undone.

    The people in charge on both sides are murderous extremists, but it is easy to see how the far right gets traction in extreme circumstances. If all of us were born in Gaza then a significant number would be supporting Hamas, and likewise with Israel and their military actions. The average age in Gaza is 17, and so many of them will have personally known people who have been murdered by the Israeli state.


    What is the end point of all this?

    Th current cycle of violence merely fuels more terrorists in Gaza and more harsh reprisals from Israel. Perhaps that suits Israel, as it gives them reasons to continue to expand into Palestinian land. But what happens when they have it all?
    Even considering jus the land they already de-facto control there are more arab people living there than Jewish - what is the long term strategy there?
    Bring them all under the umbrella of one nation and it is no longer a Jewish state - while that wouldn't be a problem for me, you cannot imagine that the people in Israel would allow that.
    So wht are the other options? they are all monstrous.
    Continue to allow the Arabic people to live there as second class citizens, unable to vote? that doesn't seem like a stable long term solution - it would inevitably lead to uprisings and bloodshed
    Deport all of the Arabic people?
    Worse?

    And you can ask the same of the Gaza terrorists - what is their ultimate endpoint - clearly they cannot win any direct conflict with Israel, so will they just keep this cycle of violence going forever? If the population weren't so pressured and the people lived more comfortable lives then you wuld imagine that support for the far right would drop off rapidly - after all there's no reason to think they are any different deep down than you or I.


    Th whole think is just so depressing.
    Excellent, if not depressing, post Rjk.

    Exactly my feelings on the situation.

    Glad at least there are some reasonable views shared on here. Social media is awash with extreme nonsense on either side. I am staying clear of the discussion.

  6. #26

    Re: Palestine Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by AfricanBluebird View Post
    I think it's important not to generalise too much.

    Jewish people are some of the loveliest and funniest people on the planet.

    Look at our very own Elliott Cantor, a lovely guy.

    Also, at famous Jewish people like Larry David, Bernie Saunders, Jason Alexander etc... all very nice, generous and funny people.

    It's important not to conflate Jewish people with the actions of the Israeli Government. Sanders in particular is very outspoken against the current Israeli regime.
    I think you missed the point of blue matt's comment. it think he was referring to meeting Israelis rather than Jews.

    The problem is that criticism of Israel gets roundly condemned as being anti-semetic, which of course it isnt. Criticism of the nation of Israel is not criticism of the Jewish faith and any attempt to portray it as such is divisive imo.

  7. #27

    Re: Palestine Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by cityhammer View Post
    I think you missed the point of blue matt's comment. it think he was referring to meeting Israelis rather than Jews.

    The problem is that criticism of Israel gets roundly condemned as being anti-semetic, which of course it isnt. Criticism of the nation of Israel is not criticism of the Jewish faith and any attempt to portray it as such is divisive imo.
    Criticism of Israel CAN be anti-Semitic, but it isn't always.

    For example - If a prominent Jewish entertainer has done something - let's say David Baddiel has released a new children's book, and is holding an online Q&A about it, but instead of asking about the book, some people repeatedly ask him to denounce the actions of the Israeli state, and message him criticising the state of Israel - something he has absolutely nothing to do with.

    that would seem pretty anti-Semitic, and it is the kind of thing that happens a lot

  8. #28

    Re: Palestine Israel

    In my opinion, if there is going to be any real change we need to be speak about the complex, usually ugly relationship between the nations (and their representatives) 6 weeks on from now when another news story has become more prominent. But how many comments do you think this thread will be getting at that point?

    An interesting part of the story described below:

    Twenty years ago, the prime minister of Israel was assassinated. The killer was a lone gunman, Israeli and Jewish, just like the prime minister. Lots of witnesses saw it happen; the assassin confessed immediately, that night, and has never recanted. But today, oddly, lots of people don’t believe it happened that way. And a question hangs over the country: did this act change the fate of the nation?

    Part 2:Ephron takes the shirt Rabin was wearing on the night of the assassination from Israel to the U.S. to have it examined by a gunshot expert. A right-wing activist describes what the assassination meant to her and her settler movement -- a political victory. Hagai, the accomplice, argues with his mother over the details of the murder, and it becomes clear that even she believes in the conspiracy theories.

    https://www.thisamericanlife.org/570...ht-in-question

  9. #29

    Re: Palestine Israel

    Some really interesting points made here. This conflict is thousands of years old and there is no simple solution.

    It just seems that it suits the agendas of certain people on both sides for this situation to carry on as it is, but this is one of those issues that the world can no longer turn its back on.

    Both peoples have historically suffered hideous attempts to destroy them. Isnít it time that the powers that be tried to sort this mess out, for the sake of the people they serve?

    Unfortunately, the people in power have brainwashed the people they serve, stirring up hatred and ignorance.

    As an aside, my motherís ancestors were Russian Jews, persecuted by the Bolsheviks, who fled and landed in England (Barnstaple, I think) a little over a hundred years ago. Iím not biased either way though.

  10. #30

    Re: Palestine Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by The Hooded Claw View Post
    Some really interesting points made here. This conflict is thousands of years old and there is no simple solution.

    It just seems that it suits the agendas of certain people on both sides for this situation to carry on as it is, but this is one of those issues that the world can no longer turn its back on.

    Both peoples have historically suffered hideous attempts to destroy them. Isn’t it time that the powers that be tried to sort this mess out, for the sake of the people they serve?

    Unfortunately, the people in power have brainwashed the people they serve, stirring up hatred and ignorance.

    As an aside, my mother’s ancestors were Russian Jews, persecuted by the Bolsheviks, who fled and landed in England (Barnstaple, I think) a little over a hundred years ago. I’m not biased either way though.
    There's no possibility of a solution while the USA supports Israel financially and and militaristically.

  11. #31

    Re: Palestine Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by The Hooded Claw View Post
    Some really interesting points made here. This conflict is thousands of years old and there is no simple solution.
    The arabs reached the levant in the 8th century, following the muslim conquest.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Hooded Claw View Post
    It just seems that it suits the agendas of certain people on both sides for this situation to carry on as it is, but this is one of those issues that the world can no longer turn its back on.

    Both peoples have historically suffered hideous attempts to destroy them. Isnít it time that the powers that be tried to sort this mess out, for the sake of the people they serve?
    the arabs have invaded israel twice in the past 60 years, and twice have had their arses handed to them on a plate. At some point they will learn not to **** with the IDF

    Quote Originally Posted by The Hooded Claw View Post
    Unfortunately, the people in power have brainwashed the people they serve, stirring up hatred and ignorance.
    it is a curious feature of this whole situation that Israel doesn't bomb the Fatah controlled west bank but does feel the need to retaliate against the Hamas controlled Gaza strip.

    Even the Egyptians have little time for Hamas.

    This indicates where the problem is.

  12. #32

    Re: Palestine Israel

    [QUOTE=Dobbo;5192157]
    Quote Originally Posted by life on mars View Post

    Iran are the backers of Hamas.Hamas's aim is to destroy Israel and create an islamic republic,so there is no way Israel can bring them to the negotiating table.
    As Hamas are mainly in Gaza, and the more friendly opposition Fatah party are in West Bank, why not declare Gaza as a satellite aggressive state allow peaceful Palestinians to resettle in the West Bank give them a better standard of living and then rout out the bad eggs firing these rockets as they will never want peace for any reason at any time , Hamas even hate each other the current leader in 2016 wanted a peaceful discussions not rockets.. However as in most parties the rogue elements want greater aggression and a take over of the leadership .

  13. #33

    Re: Palestine Israel

    I guess neither side are willing to concede anything now after hating each other, and seeing so much carnage for so long. It’s hard to see how it will ever end.....

  14. #34

    Re: Palestine Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by Feedback View Post
    The arabs reached the levant in the 8th century, following the muslim conquest.

    the arabs have invaded israel twice in the past 60 years, and twice have had their arses handed to them on a plate. At some point they will learn not to **** with the IDF

    it is a curious feature of this whole situation that Israel doesn't bomb the Fatah controlled west bank but does feel the need to retaliate against the Hamas controlled Gaza strip.

    Even the Egyptians have little time for Hamas.

    This indicates where the problem is.
    FFS I think there's a lot more to it than that.

    We aren't talking about bored delinquents who are wanting to " **** with the IDF" for a bit of fun .
    These are desperate people, who have seen countless friends and family members murdered, and seen their people oppressed.
    Education is low and misinformation is probably rife, the population is young and angry. It would be hard to design a better breeding ground for terrorists. If any of us were born there we would likely be exactly the same.


    The Israeli line of "if they didn't launch rockets we wouldn't have to do air strikes" is really flawed.
    It doesn't consider the oppression of people in Gaza in the first place.

  15. #35

    Re: Palestine Israel

    [QUOTE=life on mars;5192235]
    Quote Originally Posted by Dobbo View Post

    As Hamas are mainly in Gaza, and the more friendly opposition Fatah party are in West Bank, why not declare Gaza as a satellite aggressive state allow peaceful Palestinians to resettle in the West Bank give them a better standard of living and then rout out the bad eggs firing these rockets as they will never want peace for any reason at any time , Hamas even hate each other the current leader in 2016 wanted a peaceful discussions not rockets.. However as in most parties the rogue elements want greater aggression and a take over of the leadership .
    there are 2 million people in the Gaza strip - how many should be moved to another city before they move in on the "bad eggs"?

  16. #36

    Re: Palestine Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY View Post
    Its like trying to beat up a giant when you are 5 foot tall , blind and have one hand tied behind your back

    Since the state of Israel was formed more and more land has been stolen off the arabs

    I would be fecking pissed off if my new next door neighbour kept moving the fence further into my garden

    And all my other neighbours just stood by and watched

    Which is exactly what is happening
    Could it be that it's none of the other neighbours business so not getting involved and keeping out of it?

  17. #37

    Re: Palestine Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by stan butler View Post
    Could it be that it's none of the other neighbours business so not getting involved and keeping out of it?
    Fair Play, Stan, you haven't really thought it through, have you?

  18. #38

    Re: Palestine Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by Tuerto View Post
    Fair Play, Stan, you haven't really thought it through, have you?
    No
    But my comment was regarding Sludge. If his neighbours were pinching his land and i was his other neighbour i'd just watch and not get involved

  19. #39

    Re: Palestine Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by Rjk View Post
    FFS I think there's a lot more to it than that.

    We aren't talking about bored delinquents who are wanting to " **** with the IDF" for a bit of fun .
    These are desperate people, who have seen countless friends and family members murdered, and seen their people oppressed.
    Education is low and misinformation is probably rife, the population is young and angry. It would be hard to design a better breeding ground for terrorists. If any of us were born there we would likely be exactly the same.


    The Israeli line of "if they didn't launch rockets we wouldn't have to do air strikes" is really flawed.
    It doesn't consider the oppression of people in Gaza in the first place.
    yet the people of the West Bank aren't oppressed, or facing such an onslaught. Hamas are the problem, and the Gazans continually support them.

  20. #40

    Re: Palestine Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by stan butler View Post
    No
    But my comment was regarding Sludge. If his neighbours were pinching his land and i was his other neighbour i'd just watch and not get involved
    On that point, i completely agree with you.

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