Palestine Israel

[chrisp_1927]

Of course Palestine should be recognised as a separate country.

However, people are deluded if they think Hamas or Israel really want that

The Palestinian people do as does most of the world... But Israel and Hamas do not, despite their counter narrative.

Think about it... If Israel and the rest of the world recognise Palestine as a sovereign state, then the persecution and crimes against Palestinians will then be war crimes. Currently, as silly as it sounds, they are not defined by international law as war crimes.

I clashed with an evangelical conservative Christian about it this morning, who stormed out of the gym we were using. Batshit crazy. Their belief is tied up with the physical return of Jesus (from the clouds), the last days and the destruction of Israel. Theology that has only been interrupted that way for a few hundred years and no theologian takes seriously.

So add 'end times' into the mix and you have some very strong feelings

Interestingly, these views were held by a hell of a lot of people in the Trump administration.

Very strange generalisation there.

Hamas don't want 2 States- you're correct there

Palestinian people do want 2 states - incorrect, many of them do want 2 states . But many are happy to support the Hamas agenda. They want to exterminate the Jews rather than have them next door.

Israel doesn't- incorrect
many in Israel do. In much the same way as many Palestinians do. In fact with both Israelis and Palestinians, it tends to depend on when the poll is taken. The extreme right of Israelis, and people like Netanyahu who enable them don't want 2 states. So if by Israel, you meant the current Israeli government you would be correct.

As for the counter narrative. There is very little from Hamas that has ever even pretended they would support a 2 state solution. The odd quote has suggested they would accept a long term ceasefire with an Israeli state. Their manifesto continues to call for the destruction of the 'zionist entity' however.

I'm a bit more optimistic than most about the potential for a settlement.

To stay in the spirit of crass generalisation:

Both sides are losing the support that allows them to behave badly.

Many of the Arab states have grown sick and tired of the Palestinians . They see that they are willing to live in shit conditions as long as they think they have a possibility of exterminating the Jews . They see that the Palestinians are more interested in destroying Israel than improving their own lot. Qatar and the UAE have both reprimanded Hamas for the rockets this time. Development funding is going to be linked to Hamas behaving better.

As for the extreme right-wing Israelis. They decided to cosy up to Trump. By doing that they have burned a hell of a lot of moderate bridges in the US. Defensive Israeli capabilities will still be supported. But I think the Israeli right now know that they can't count on complete US support for everything they do. Biden has been clear on this, and many in the Democrats have been even more forthright. Hopefully the next 4 or 8 years will see a rolling back of settlements and some concrete pullbacks from East Jerusalem

[AfricanBluebird]

Very strange generalisation there.

Hamas don't want 2 States- you're correct there

Palestinian people do want 2 states - incorrect, many of them do want 2 states . But many are happy to support the Hamas agenda. They want to exterminate the Jews rather than have them next door.

Israel doesn't- incorrect
many in Israel do. In much the same way as many Palestinians do. In fact with both Israelis and Palestinians, it tends to depend on when the poll is taken. The extreme right of Israelis, and people like Netanyahu who enable them don't want 2 states. So if by Israel, you meant the current Israeli government you would be correct.

As for the counter narrative. There is very little from Hamas that has ever even pretended they would support a 2 state solution. The odd quote has suggested they would accept a long term ceasefire with an Israeli state. Their manifesto continues to call for the destruction of the 'zionist entity' however.

I'm a bit more optimistic than most about the potential for a settlement.

To stay in the spirit of crass generalisation:

Both sides are losing the support that allows them to behave badly.

Many of the Arab states have grown sick and tired of the Palestinians . They see that they are willing to live in shit conditions as long as they think they have a possibility of exterminating the Jews . They see that the Palestinians are more interested in destroying Israel than improving their own lot. Qatar and the UAE have both reprimanded Hamas for the rockets this time. Development funding is going to be linked to Hamas behaving better.

As for the extreme right-wing Israelis. They decided to cosy up to Trump. By doing that they have burned a hell of a lot of moderate bridges in the US. Defensive Israeli capabilities will still be supported. But I think the Israeli right now know that they can't count on complete US support for everything they do. Biden has been clear on this, and many in the Democrats have been even more forthright. Hopefully the next 4 or 8 years will see a rolling back of settlements and some concrete pullbacks from East Jerusalem

You've made as many generalisations as me.
The surrounding Arab nations never cared about Palestinians as people, they helped keep them poor and therefore angry at Israel as pawns for their anti- Israeli agenda. Israel's continued illegal encroachment is perhaps a land grab before they are forced to stop, so grabbing as much as possible to use in future negotiations.

However, your last paragraph is, on my more positive days, something I agreement .. a hopeful solution. Support for israel's actions is waining and Hamas are gaining no friends. But Israel have to roll back the settlements and Hamas has to be dismantled for peace to ever work.