Palestine Israel

[AfricanBluebird]

Very strange generalisation there.

Hamas don't want 2 States- you're correct there

Palestinian people do want 2 states - incorrect, many of them do want 2 states . But many are happy to support the Hamas agenda. They want to exterminate the Jews rather than have them next door.

Israel doesn't- incorrect
many in Israel do. In much the same way as many Palestinians do. In fact with both Israelis and Palestinians, it tends to depend on when the poll is taken. The extreme right of Israelis, and people like Netanyahu who enable them don't want 2 states. So if by Israel, you meant the current Israeli government you would be correct.

As for the counter narrative. There is very little from Hamas that has ever even pretended they would support a 2 state solution. The odd quote has suggested they would accept a long term ceasefire with an Israeli state. Their manifesto continues to call for the destruction of the 'zionist entity' however.

I'm a bit more optimistic than most about the potential for a settlement.

To stay in the spirit of crass generalisation:

Both sides are losing the support that allows them to behave badly.

Many of the Arab states have grown sick and tired of the Palestinians . They see that they are willing to live in shit conditions as long as they think they have a possibility of exterminating the Jews . They see that the Palestinians are more interested in destroying Israel than improving their own lot. Qatar and the UAE have both reprimanded Hamas for the rockets this time. Development funding is going to be linked to Hamas behaving better.

As for the extreme right-wing Israelis. They decided to cosy up to Trump. By doing that they have burned a hell of a lot of moderate bridges in the US. Defensive Israeli capabilities will still be supported. But I think the Israeli right now know that they can't count on complete US support for everything they do. Biden has been clear on this, and many in the Democrats have been even more forthright. Hopefully the next 4 or 8 years will see a rolling back of settlements and some concrete pullbacks from East Jerusalem

You've made as many generalisations as me.
The surrounding Arab nations never cared about Palestinians as people, they helped keep them poor and therefore angry at Israel as pawns for their anti- Israeli agenda. Israel's continued illegal encroachment is perhaps a land grab before they are forced to stop, so grabbing as much as possible to use in future negotiations.

However, your last paragraph is, on my more positive days, something I agreement .. a hopeful solution. Support for israel's actions is waining and Hamas are gaining no friends. But Israel have to roll back the settlements and Hamas has to be dismantled for peace to ever work.

[chrisp_1927]

You've made as many generalisations as me.
The surrounding Arab nations never cared about Palestinians as people, they helped keep them poor and therefore angry at Israel as pawns for their anti- Israeli agenda. Israel's continued illegal encroachment is perhaps a land grab before they are forced to stop, so grabbing as much as possible to use in future negotiations.

However, your last paragraph is, on my more positive days, something I agreement .. a hopeful solution. Support for israel's actions is waining and Hamas are gaining no friends. But Israel have to roll back the settlements and Hamas has to be dismantled for peace to ever work.

Hopefully it will start falling into place. Before this kick off, Israel were only days away from a coalition that got rid of Netanyahu and that also included the Arab parties. Israel pulling out of settlements and East Jerusalem needs to happen soon.

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Lots has gone tits up since the creation of Israel. That doesn't mean it was allndown to their bad behaviour though, some was but lots was down to the fact that the Muslim population were taught to hate jews.

I may be wrong, but it seems a bit like you have as much of a problem with the existence of Israel, as you do with their actions.
As for the religion is bollocks idea. Well again I'm 100 % in agreement with you. Only problem is , you seem to use that as a cop out for any bad behaviour from the Arab side. Then zero in again on any Israeli aggression.

No , the Palestinians are hemmed in and are fighting back

I would do the same

[Tuerto]

Between 1940-1970 over 800k Jews had to leave Arab controlled lands. Quite a few settled in Israel.

Prior to this time many Arab lands were controlled by the French and British, and Jews could live peacefully. Following pan Arab nationalism, many Jews were expelled, being forced to leave their property. This has happened within living memory.

When you consider that throughout history the Jews have been expelled more times than you would care to count (believe it or not Jews were expelled by General Grant from a few border states in the US Civil War)., it comes as no surprise that the Jews want a place they can call their home. It should also come as no surprise that many Jews don't trust the Arabs, a group of people who have persecuted the Jews in recent times, invaded their nation twice and, for a sizeable proportion of the Arab nation, wish to see Israel removed from existence.

So the question is, do you think that Israel is justified in what it is-has done in annexing Palestinian land, and forcing palestinians out of their homes? It's enough to understand why this situation has arisen, but do you think it's justified?

[Tuerto]

Religion

All bollocks

It's not that simple, is it?

[Feedback]

So the question is, do you think that Israel is justified in what it is-has done in annexing Palestinian land, and forcing palestinians out of their homes? It's enough to understand why this situation has arisen, but do you think it's justified?

Whilst yours is a straightforward question I don't think you can give it a straightforward answer.

It is easy for us to say how Israel should behave, and there are many Israelis who would agree (the peace protest by Israelis and Palestinians in Tel Aviv today), however there are many in Israel who believe they the God given right to the land and that it was taken from them by the Arabs. This will please the orthodox and ultra orthodox Jewry. There is also the viewpoint that this landgrab is about extending Israel as much as possible before Hamas finally comes to the table.

To answer your question whether it is justified, some in Israel believe they are literally fighting for their existence. Hamas believe the same. I'm a believer in a single state solution as there are elements on both sides who cannot countenance a two state solution, and as long as they exist, there will never be peace. Until the moderates on both side take control, both sides will believe their actions are justified.

[surge]

Obviously anti-Semitism is awful and should be challenged. Though the protests seen have appeared to be under one banner there are going to be some rotters in attendance who move in very different circles and have their own agenda.

And as if to prove my point:

Stephen Yaxley-Lennon, or Tommy Robinson as he likes to be called was not invited today. Nor was he in any way welcome. We do not want his "support" and we ask him to stay away from future events. Today is about supporting Israel, not spreading hate.

https://twitter.com/JLC_uk/status/1396472049225322502

Separate to that...

The UN says an estimated 800,000 Palestinians in the Gaza Strip no longer have regular access to clean water as the full extent of Israel’s 11-day bombardment of the blockaded enclave is coming to light.

https://twitter.com/AJEnglish/status...74315571408901

Unless progress is made during times of ceasefire (removal of Hamas and the current Israeli government and their land-grabbing, oppressive 'defence" policies) then there will sadly be further violence.

[life on mars]

Any marches or outpouring of disgust about the poor civilians including children as young as 13 in northern Ethiopia who are being burned because of the use of white phosphorus, surely a potential war crime,
????

Its awful stuff it entirely burns away the skin the arms, legs, face and hands, leaving a white and red paste of flesh and fat.

[Feedback]

Any marches or outpouring of disgust about the poor civilians including children as young as 13 in northern Ethiopia who are being burned because of the use of white phosphorus, surely a potential war crime,
????

Its awful stuff it entirely burns away the skin the arms, legs, face and hands, leaving a white and red paste of flesh and fat.

Did the Red Sea Pedestrians do it? if not then there is your answer.

of course, this whole Palestine thing is not racially motivated. of course.

[AfricanBluebird]

Any marches or outpouring of disgust about the poor civilians including children as young as 13 in northern Ethiopia who are being burned because of the use of white phosphorus, surely a potential war crime,
????

Its awful stuff it entirely burns away the skin the arms, legs, face and hands, leaving a white and red paste of flesh and fat.

Just an awful situation.

I agree - a war crime.

Sadly, living in Africa and working with people on the front line, I see situations like this that sadly too often don't get reported in the mainstream media.

And also information / stories that don't get told... i.e. high number of western paedophiles flooding into east Africa, the slow but systematic economic colonisation of Africa by china, the ongoing grooming of African countries by evangelical Christians #/ missionaries who are forcing their extreme views not only onto people but influencing governments, the new heroin routes through Nairobi causing an addiction boom in Kenya...


I think the Israeli / Palestine thing does get too much press compared to other atrocities, and I know that's your point - and one I agree with. Maybe it's because the conflict involves so much history and western players that it gets so much airtime.

[delmbox]

Any marches or outpouring of disgust about the poor civilians including children as young as 13 in northern Ethiopia who are being burned because of the use of white phosphorus, surely a potential war crime,
????

Its awful stuff it entirely burns away the skin the arms, legs, face and hands, leaving a white and red paste of flesh and fat.

Have you organized or been on any? You really are the world's biggest wetwipe

[life on mars]

Just an awful situation.

I agree - a war crime.

Sadly, living in Africa and working with people on the front line, I see situations like this that sadly too often don't get reported in the mainstream media.

And also information / stories that don't get told... i.e. high number of western paedophiles flooding into east Africa, the slow but systematic economic colonisation of Africa by china, the ongoing grooming of African countries by evangelical Christians #/ missionaries who are forcing their extreme views not only onto people but influencing governments, the new heroin routes through Nairobi causing an addiction boom in Kenya...


I think the Israeli / Palestine thing does get too much press compared to other atrocities, and I know that's your point - and one I agree with. Maybe it's because the conflict involves so much history and western players that it gets so much airtime.

I had to look away at the awful images of their kin burns of the young people where there black skins had turned white one was only 13 .

There are thousands of people being mascaraed across the globe in the name of power, wealth, religion land and ethnic cleansing ,sadly only some conflicts garner more emotion and protest

[Rjk]

I had to look away at the awful images of their kin burns of the young people where there black skins had turned white one was only 13 .

There are thousands of people being mascaraed across the globe in the name of power, wealth, religion land and ethnic cleansing ,sadly only some conflicts garner more emotion and protest

where are all the threads you've started on those conflicts then?

[Feedback]

where are all the threads you've started on those conflicts then?

you just responded to his post about it

[surge]

I had to look away at the awful images of their kin burns of the young people where there black skins had turned white one was only 13 .

....

Any chance for a thread and/or some links so we can improve our knowledge? There are continents which, in my opinion, most of us don't know much about at all but the way you're posting about it here seems to be more about distracting from what the Israeli government is doing today rather than highlighting other areas of concern.

[Feedback]

Any chance for a thread and/or some links so we can improve our knowledge? There are continents which, in my opinion, most of us don't know much about at all but the way you're posting about it here seems to be more about distracting from what the Israeli government is doing today rather than highlighting other areas of concern.

if that is what you take away from it then there is little point in discussing further. The point being made was very clear - we see atrocities such as this each and every day but little if any get the air time unless the yids are involved.

Only one poster in this thread has condemned Israel and has done it from a position of perspective and objectivity and that is African Bluebird. The rest are just using this as an opportunity to partake in a bit of Jew bashing.

[Rjk]

if that is what you take away from it then there is little point in discussing further. The point being made was very clear - we see atrocities such as this each and every day but little if any get the air time unless the yids are involved.

Only one poster in this thread has condemned Israel and has done it from a position of perspective and objectivity and that is African Bluebird. The rest are just using this as an opportunity to partake in a bit of Jew bashing.

I suggest you read the thread more carefully, it's disgusting to accuse people of Jew bashing, you should be ashamed of yourself. it has been explained many times on this thread why this topic tends to draw more attention.

[Feedback]

I suggest you read the thread more carefully, it's disgusting to accuse people of Jew bashing, you should be ashamed of yourself. it has been explained many times on this thread why this topic tends to draw more attention.

I take from this that a nerve has been struck.

[life on mars]

if that is what you take away from it then there is little point in discussing further. The point being made was very clear - we see atrocities such as this each and every day but little if any get the air time unless the yids are involved.

Only one poster in this thread has condemned Israel and has done it from a position of perspective and objectivity and that is African Bluebird. The rest are just using this as an opportunity to partake in a bit of Jew bashing.

Yes , and its strange as the word disproportionate is often used when describing Israelis action ( rightly so ) well form what I see , read there is a disproportionate rage and protest between the Israeli action which I don't support and all for the other tragic atrocities around the world i've pointed out a few an got no traction some last for years not 11 days In Northern Iraq 25k have died at the hands of the Turks, how many thousands in North Korea , endless wars in Africa ,Syria , Iran .
Just strikes me that the Israeli or Jew is a nice easy target .

Anyone spot the Nazi banners In London as Corby spoke in defence of the Palestinians over the weekend ??

180 k marching , I've never seen that amount on UK streets for the atrocities carried out daily in Africa , Northern Iraq ,North Korea , Syria or for China's crimes against humanity in its treatment of the Uighur /Turkic Muslims..

And folk talk about annexation of lands where was the mass protests when Russia annexed the Crimea wasn't that a violation of international law ? PS No mass demo's .

Load of pish

[Eric Cartman]

if that is what you take away from it then there is little point in discussing further. The point being made was very clear - we see atrocities such as this each and every day but little if any get the air time unless the yids are involved.

Only one poster in this thread has condemned Israel and has done it from a position of perspective and objectivity and that is African Bluebird. The rest are just using this as an opportunity to partake in a bit of Jew bashing.

What exactly are you accusing people of?

[Eric Cartman]

I take from this that a nerve has been struck.

Pathetic as usual.

[Eric Cartman]

Yes , and its strange as the word disproportionate is often used when describing Israelis action ( rightly so ) well form what I see , read there is a disproportionate rage and protest between the Israeli action which I don't support and all for the other tragic atrocities around the world i've pointed out a few an got no traction some last for years not 11 days In Northern Iraq 25k have died at the hands of the Turks, how many thousands in North Korea , endless wars in Africa ,Syria , Iran .
Just strikes me that the Israeli or Jew is a nice easy target .

Anyone spot the Nazi banners In London as Corby spoke in defence of the Palestinians over the weekend ??

180 k marching , I've never seen that amount on UK streets for the atrocities carried out daily in Africa , Northern Iraq ,North Korea , Syria or for China's crimes against humanity in its treatment of the Uighur /Turkic Muslims..

And folk talk about annexation of lands where was the mass protests when Russia annexed the Crimea wasn't that a violation of international law ? PS No mass demo's .

Load of pish

What are you doing to stop these things? This is like a guy who has never been to a game criticising someone who goes to 3 a year for not being a season ticket holder.

[Feedback]

What exactly are you accusing people of?

Jew bashing, it was pretty obvious.

[Feedback]

Pathetic as usual.

if that is all you can muster in response then you've thrown in the metaphorical towel.

[Eric Cartman]

if that is all you can muster in response then you've thrown in the metaphorical towel.

Okay.

'Muslim basher'

How's that for erudite?