Palestine Israel

[Stanmore Bluebird]

Because so many people on this board are preoccupied with Israel and conveniently forget that so many of its inhabitants are direct descendants/relatives of murdered Jews from the Nazi era. Many of the survivors of this era were refugees who managed to reach Israel.

We cannot blame Israel for not meekly accepting persecution/murder like too many of their descendants did in WW2. The current generation has become ‘harder’ and quite correctly learned how to defend itself. Just don’t focus so much upon Israel at the expense of other on-standing terrible atrocities elsewhere on the globe where far more genocide occurs.

[life on mars]

Because so many people on this board are preoccupied with Israel and conveniently forget that so many of its inhabitants are direct descendants/relatives of murdered Jews from the Nazi era. Many of the survivors of this era were refugees who managed to reach Israel.

The hatred of Jews and the state is world wide , we see many campaigns against racism is mystifying , even last week a rabbi was beaten up on the UK , graves are still damaged around the world and in the UK some are blind to the nastiness of subsides groups like Hamas who don't give a flying duck about innocents are peace as there hatred towards Israel and Jew is greater .

If Israel surrendered its war like self defence ( which can be disproportioned) they would be invaded bombed routed and killed out of existence , I can image being somewhere where every one around you hates you creates this behaviour .

[surge]

Because so many people on this board are preoccupied with Israel and conveniently forget that so many of its inhabitants are direct descendants/relatives of murdered Jews from the Nazi era. Many of the survivors of this era were refugees who managed to reach Israel.

I don't believe that is forgotten. In fact, the horrific way Jewish people were treated while living in Europe and the UK's involvement in leaving the disputed land is probably why there is such an interest in what's going on and in comparison other civil wars get less attention.

[AfricanBluebird]

Because so many people on this board are preoccupied with Israel and conveniently forget that so many of its inhabitants are direct descendants/relatives of murdered Jews from the Nazi era. Many of the survivors of this era were refugees who managed to reach Israel.

No one has forgotten what happened to the Jews and it is disingenuous to people on this board to suggest that.

You won't find holocaust deniers here and you won't find people who have no sympathy with what the Jewish people went through during and after the war.

You also won't find many people who don't support Israel's right to exist or defend itself.

However, whatever the Jewish people have gone through, does not give the current right-wing Israeli government to right to break international law, pursue a policy of ejecting Palestinians from their homes, squeezing Palestinians into an increasing smaller geographical area, denying services, a brutal policy of discrimination and provoking communities by attacking holy sites.

[lardy]

You won't find holocaust deniers here

Not since Organ Morgan was last here anyway

[AfricanBluebird]

I've asked for evidence that this particular house was taken from Palestinians, not a history lesson.

but regarding your own post, you're very selective about when you start looking at the number of Jews in the Levant. Around the start of the 7th century, there were, according to various estimates, between 150,000-400,000 and the number of Arabs was nil. Move forward a hundred yeas, following the Muslim conquest and the figures change quite dramatically.

The Jews were in the Levant way before the Arabs, and were forcibly displaced following military conquest. You ignore this rather conveniently.

You also forget that many Jews were expelled from the Levant under the Ottoman's, who preferred their Muslim Palestinian brothers ahead of the Jew diaspora who had been living in the Levant for many generations.

This issue did not start in the 1920s, and what we are seeing today is one of many rounds of conflict where Jew or Arab have had the upper hand and hegemony.

Turning to the modern day, the Jews accepted the partition plan, the Arabs did not. The Jews have quite literally been fighting for Israel's existence ever since, having been invaded twice by the Arabs, who have had their arses handed to them on a plate both times.

Until Hamas accepts Israel has a right to exist, which is international law (resolution 181 (II)), Israel is within its rights to defend itself.

turning to my scenario, I asked for evidence of this one particular example cited by RJK. All we have had in return is bluster and rhetoric about what may have happened. no evidence has been provided so on that basis, it is difficult to form an opinion on this particular case.

You proposed that 'perhaps' this Palestinian family had illegally taken the house from the Jewish family in the 20's or 30's. As stated based on the geography of the town - that would have been impossible. Also, look at the demographics of the Jewish people from the US who have come to Israel to settle. These are not families who's parents were living in this town in the 20s and 30s.

However, in this specific case you are right in that we all lack context. We do know that these settlements are breaking international law and widely condemned.

[AfricanBluebird]

As an aside, as much as there is criticism for Israel here we must not forget how awful the surrounding Arab nations are towards Israel and also the Palestinians. They too, should not be excluded from criticism as they have allowed their fellow arabs in Palestine to be used as political tools against the Israelis without helping or alleviating human suffering.

[Tuerto]

Because so many people on this board are preoccupied with Israel and conveniently forget that so many of its inhabitants are direct descendants/relatives of murdered Jews from the Nazi era. Many of the survivors of this era were refugees who managed to reach Israel.

So, not a great deal was learnt by the actions of one man who decided to turf people out of their homes and businesses, then attempt to murder them because they have the audacity to retaliate. Israel is a rogue state and their flag represents apartheid.

[Feedback]

You proposed that 'perhaps' this Palestinian family had illegally taken the house from the Jewish family in the 20's or 30's. As stated based on the geography of the town - that would have been impossible. Also, look at the demographics of the Jewish people from the US who have come to Israel to settle. These are not families who's parents were living in this town in the 20s and 30s.

However, in this specific case you are right in that we all lack context. We do know that these settlements are breaking international law and widely condemned.

My fault. I shouldn't have been too specific about the dates the Jews were expelled, but they were. So does it matter if it was the 1920s or 1850s or whenever? The Jews were booted out of their homes which were given to Arab Muslims. That was my point.

So in this case this home may have once been a Jewish home which Israel are now reclaiming. Or it may have always been an Arab home. I dont know.

All we know is that until these two people (genetically more like one people) learn to get along, there will always be mistrust and killings from both sides.

[Rjk]

nobody wants the Jewish people to be persecuted, or wants to remove Israel from the map. even if some of us think that setting it up in the way that it was was a big mistake, it is too late to undo that now.
furthermore, if I had to choose one nation in the region to live in it would almost certainly be Israel , for all that is wrong there many of the neighbouring countries have oppressive regimes too.

take Iran for example. Iranian people are warm and friendly, the women are beautiful, the food is amazing and it has beaches, mountains, historic cities, but unfortunately it is ruled currently by religious fanatics, who I certainly would not want to get on the wrong side of.
because of the actions of the people in control there have been strict sanctions on Iran off and on since the 1970s.
are they effective? I don't know. I would clearly prefer to see Iran emerge as a free democracy and would love to visit if it does.

I think why so many people are drawn to comment on Israel, is they see them doing horrendous things to the Arabic population living on the land and there is never any pushback from the western governments.
also because there is always someone along to rush to their defence - if I criticise China's treatment of a minority group there most likely people will say yes it is terrible. if I criticise what Israel does to the Palestinians there are always people who will justify it - I think that's why these threads become more prominent

[Feedback]

nobody wants the Jewish people to be persecuted, or wants to remove Israel from the map. even if some of us think that setting it up in the way that it was was a big mistake, it is too late to undo that now.
furthermore, if I had to choose one nation in the region to live in it would almost certainly be Israel , for all that is wrong there many of the neighbouring countries have oppressive regimes too.

take Iran for example. Iranian people are warm and friendly, the women are beautiful, the food is amazing and it has beaches, mountains, historic cities, but unfortunately it is ruled currently by religious fanatics, who I certainly would not want to get on the wrong side of.
because of the actions of the people in control there have been strict sanctions on Iran off and on since the 1970s.
are they effective? I don't know. I would clearly prefer to see Iran emerge as a free democracy and would love to visit if it does.

I think why so many people are drawn to comment on Israel, is they see them doing horrendous things to the Arabic population living on the land and there is never any pushback from the western governments.
also because there is always someone along to rush to their defence - if I criticise China's treatment of a minority group there most likely people will say yes it is terrible. if I criticise what Israel does to the Palestinians there are always people who will justify it - I think that's why these threads become more prominent

you start of by saying that no one wants to see Israel wiped off the map then talk at length about Iran. I would suggest you read up on what Iran thinks of Israel, as well as Hamas and many other groups in the middle east and north africa.

and yes, some Persian women are seriously top end

[Rjk]

you start of by saying that no one wants to see Israel wiped off the map then talk at length about Iran. I would suggest you read up on what Iran thinks of Israel, as well as Hamas and many other groups in the middle east and north africa.

and yes, some Persian women are seriously top end

I meant nobody on *here* really.
Although the oft quoted statement by the former Iranian prime-minister is very much out of context - I am confident that the vast majority of people in the region from any nation don't want to wipe any nation off the map, they just want to live their own life

[Feedback]

I meant nobody on *here* really.
Although the oft quoted statement by the former Iranian prime-minister is very much out of context - I am confident that the vast majority of people in the region from any nation don't want to wipe any nation off the map, they just want to live their own life

Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's words may have been taken out of context, but he does not believe in the state of Israel and refuses to recognise it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahmou...dinejad#Israel

as for the rest, i agree, most people want a peaceful life, however those in power are not most people.

[surge]

The history of this area is ugly and complicated (and as ever the UK plays a role in that) and makes people reluctant to pay attention for any length of time but, in my opinion, only if we're still paying as much attention in the month after a ceasefire is called will any progress be made. Otherwise there will be fresh violence further down the line with Palestinians saying it's the only time the world pays attention and the Israeli government saying it's exactly why they should be allowed to defend itself in any way necessary.

[Stanmore Bluebird]

See these words:

HTTPS:www.Instagram.com/tv/CPAbdFRnOj1/

How true is this 100%!!!

[life on mars]

Anyways where's the marches and outrage around the many thousands of deaths Turkey has delivered on the Kurds in Northern Iraq many innocents dead . 20k alledgly, not sure if anyone is counting ?

Or do we only raise outrage around certain politically motivated issues.

Media is almost silent as are the far left.

[delmbox]

Anyways where's the marches and outrage around the many thousands of deaths Turkey has delivered on the Kurds in Northern Iraq many innocents dead . 20k alledgly, not sure if anyone is counting ?

Or do we only raise outrage around certain politically motivated issues.

Media is almost silent as are the far left.

Crack on with organizing a march mate, you'll have plenty of experience after the marches you organized during the BLM protests because you were so upset that the people who started those protests weren't protesting about everything else that's bad in the world.

Stanmore Bluebird will join you on it, he's got strong opinions about the perceived lack of empathy for conflicts other than Israel/Palestine as well

You could call it the whatabout whatabout march, good on you both, I hope it goes well

[surge]

Anti-Semitism is horrific and should be called out. That includes Spurs fans claim to support and defend Jewish culture.

There are other atrocities that also deserve attention. I maintain that the history of the Jewish people in Europe - the horrific way they were treated, the historical involvement of the UK in setting up Israel and UK's close allies in America having such such a relationship with Israel makes this feel closer to home than most.

Israel has enemies which have violent intent and if balance of technology and wealth was reversed this thread could easily be more about the oppression of Israel instead, and it's the oppression most of us care about rather than the flags. These enemies should be acknowledged but intent isn't always more important than actions.

Earlier in this thread we thought that people living in Gaza couldn't leave even if they wanted to. Their facilities are being destroyed, so many innocent people are dying just because of where they're born and in a little while when ceasefire is in place and world's attention turns away again the Israeli government will continue to put Palestine under oppressive conditions and seemingly seek to expand it's land mass at the cost of others. That bit matters much more than any distraction tactic.

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Because so many people on this board are preoccupied with Israel and conveniently forget that so many of its inhabitants are direct descendants/relatives of murdered Jews from the Nazi era. Many of the survivors of this era were refugees who managed to reach Israel.

You know that a lot of these people who have parachuted into the state of Israel are landing in settlements that were stolen from Arab people ? And its still happening . If I was an Arab I would throw a rock .

[Eric Cartman]

Anyways where's the marches and outrage around the many thousands of deaths Turkey has delivered on the Kurds in Northern Iraq many innocents dead . 20k alledgly, not sure if anyone is counting ?

Or do we only raise outrage around certain politically motivated issues.

Media is almost silent as are the far left.

A quick search of Google will show that the only publication relentlessly covering what is happening to the Kurds is the morning star and the only people willing to talk about it are from the left.

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Why don’t you all discuss other current civil wars, many of which are taking place in many parts of the world? Just look at the numbers being killed elsewhere which are far heavier than the subject conflict.

Also, the numbers killed by Hamas are misleading as they have attempted to kill far more Israelis than they have succeeded in doing - just look at the number of missiles they have launched against Israel!

If you are fighting a giant , backed by other giants ......Israel and America ......then fireworks even hundreds of home made rockets , most of which don't make it , blow up those firing them or get shot down .........and you are faced by a huge , armoured , military force ......occupying a place you used to live then I think its fair enough to have a go

I would

[chrisp_1927]

The actions of the settlers in the new settlements, and the actions in sheikh Jarrah were an absolute disgrace. The ultra right wing, enabled by Netanyahu are guilty of breaking international law and should be punished.

But I cringe when I see some of the outright condemnations of Israels existence, the idea that it was 'thrust' into Arab land. Lots of countries were created around that time in that area, their neighbours Jordan being one of them, Saudi Arabia another.

The ottoman empire had encompassed a massive area and its breakup was always going to lead to change.

I'm not defending all of Israels actions towards the Palestinians. Lots of them have been horrendous, and as a powerful democratic country Israel should act better. But the overwhelming hostility and aggression has always been towards Israel from its neighbours .

In terms of the current conflict, the actions of the settlers in Jerusalem were a disgrace. But the general consensus was that the Israeli High Court were probably going to throw the settlers claims out. For Hamas to launch 300 rockets at civilians as 'retaliation ' , is bloodthirsty terrorism at its finest. Some of the targets Israel has bombed in Gaza also mean they deserve contempt.

After the Trump administration enabled the very worst desires of the extreme Israeli right wing. I suppose it was always inevitable that something would happen early on in Bidens term. It suits the agenda of Hamas and the extreme right in Israel to know where Biden stands, so they know how far they can push their agenda. We need to see an end of Hamas and Netanyahu, hopefully this will happen soon

[life on mars]

A quick search of Google will show that the only publication relentlessly covering what is happening to the Kurds is the morning star and the only people willing to talk about it are from the left.

I'll keep an eye out for the same outpouring, banners ,marches as it's been going on for years with many more dead.

[Stanmore Bluebird]

On a much lighter note, I remember Alf Garnett discussing the thread subject. He claimed the Arabs lived in peace in Palestine until the Jews relocated there in bulk after 1948 when they arrived with their fancy cars, big houses, beautiful clothes, expensive art etc etc. All this he reckoned made the Israeli opposition jealous!!

I don’t mean to disrespect the topic but thought I’d throw this in.

Without wishing to be disparaging, my opinion is that we have displayed much maturity and fairness on this thread whatsoever our individual views. It has been a thoroughly grown-up discussion.

[blue matt]

israel have agreed a ceasefire great news indeed

they just need to unload a few tonnes of missiles from the laden F16's safer to launch them rather than handle them on runways i hear