Joey Barton

[Tuerto]

But tuerto they didn't say, "Oh look he's white, we'll give him the job"
I understand what you say about a black would be manager with the same criminal record not getting the job, but many white would be managers without his high level experience wouldn't get the job either

I know that. The point Is that a black player with the Same form as Barton ain't getting a manager's job, and he wouldn't get a gig on talk radio or a column of in a newspaper, or have a bit of a cult following on twitter.

[xsnaggle]

I know that. The point Is that a black player with the Same form as Barton ain't getting a manager's job, and he wouldn't get a gig on talk radio or a column of in a newspaper, or have a bit of a cult following on twitter.

I'm not disputing that but that doesn't mean Barton got the job "Because he's white"

[J R Hartley]

Because there's fewer black players... what sort of question is that? If you look at the previous generation the percentage of black players is much smaller than it is today, if those players decided not to go into coaching (spoiler, most players regardless of race don't bother with this) then you have a small pool of black coaches to choose from. You are also purposely ignoring Sol's attempt at politics after he retired (perhaps you knew this but seemingly forget to mention it cause it weakens your point). He only started to show an interest in coaching in 2017, 5 years after he retired, no shit he didn't walk into a job when he's so far off the pace.

David James had a great take on this which doesn't boil down to your simplistic "white people get jobs and black people don't". I suggest you read this before you try and derail more threads about this exact topic again

https://www.fourfourtwo.com/features...w-bame-coaches

Some very interesting points there. Especially there being very few English managers - of any ethnicity - in the Premier League and Championship for that matter (All 3 promoted clubs last season managed by a foreign manager).

I’m glad it was David James making those very valid, very articulate points.I dare say if it was Neil Warnock making those exact same points he’s be accused by some on here of white privilege and unconscious racism.

[Cleve van Leef]

And I thought I posted about Joey Barton and his suitability to be employed as a Manager

[Tuerto]

And I thought I posted about Joey Barton and his suitability to be employed as a Manager

Oh, right. He did a decent enough job at Fleetwood, so the Rovers job was deserved on merit. If he keeps chinning people then i don't really think that he's suitable for a role in management. My point was that a black player with his charge sheet wouldn't get near it, he'd have had dogs abuse in the media, or much more than Barton received. Wouldn't have got a slot on Talksport, or seen as some kind of angry poet due to his poor up bringing and penchant towards philosophical sound bites, and he certainly wouldn't have got a role in one of Morrisseys music videos, that's the biggest given of them all. Sorry to disrupt your thread cleve

[J R Hartley]

And I thought I posted about Joey Barton and his suitability to be employed as a Manager

As a long standing member of this forum you should no better then to start a managerial thread when Tuerto is online.

[Tuerto]

As a long standing member of this forum you should no better then to start a managerial thread when Tuerto is online.

Correct, and until things change, i'll say the same thing, over and over again.

[Joe Gillis]

You are very wrong.

No I'm not

[Tuerto]

No I'm not

Well, that's your opinion, it's not mine and countless others. I don't like the man or his politics, as a footballer, he was incredible.

[delmbox]

No I'm not

You really are, Sol Campbell was an exceptional defender in his prime

[Rock_Flock_of_Five]

I stopped reading Tuerto's post when he said "Sol Campbell was 15 years ahead of the game".

[Tuerto]

I stopped reading Tuerto's post when he said "Sol Campbell was 15 years ahead of the game".

As an English central defender, he was way ahead in terms of ability, vision, positioning, passing and understanding when and when not to make a tackle etc. Tremendous player and world class for a period in my opinion.

[J R Hartley]

I'm making a comparison between sol and his contemporaries, **** me, it's like pulling teeth, can't you grasp that? Some of them (who got decent managerial jobs) who were top class players as well. Sol Campbell applied for plenty of jobs but had to settle for a club that were on the brink of going out of the league, yet, he had his coaching badges and a top class career behind him, much like gerrard, lampard, Robson etc. None of them started at that level, they were trusted.

Things are changing, especially in media, and that's great. It isn't in football though, as it isn't at managerial level in most industries. When black footballers broke onto the scene, there was a mis trust. Could they handle the cold weather, the physicality of the game, they were only good as skilfull bit part players, they were quick, not to be trusted in positions of influence, etc. The racists were saying those things.

Now that stigma has been banished, the next one is trust in positions of power and decision making. That's my opinion and belief.

No, you gave a list of contemporaries that suited your narrative. I gave a list of his white contemporaries that also had to start from the bottom. I also gave a few examples of black players who were afforded the same level of entry and as Gerrard, Lampard.etc

Maybe, just maybe, Campbell didn’t inspire enough to be given a job at a higher level. He doesn’t come across the most personable of characters and his loyalty is also questionable after what he did to Spurs. Bryan Robson and Steven Gerrard both cut their teeth managing younger teams at United and Liverpool when they finished playing. Did Campbell show the same appetite when he retired? They were also very inspirational captains and leaders. As colossal a defender as Campbell was I don’t recall him being a vocal leader on the pitch and the same has been said of him in the dressing room by ex team mates.

[Tuerto]

No, you gave a list of contemporaries that suited your narrative. I gave a list of his white contemporaries that also had to start from the bottom. I also gave a few examples of black players who were afforded the same level of entry and as Gerrard, Lampard.etc

Maybe, just maybe, Campbell didn’t inspire enough to be given a job at a higher level. He doesn’t come across the most personable of characters and his loyalty is also questionable after what he did to Spurs. Bryan Robson and Steven Gerrard both cut their teeth managing younger teams at United and Liverpool when they finished playing. Did Campbell show the same appetite when he retired? They were also very inspirational captains and leaders. As colossal a defender as Campbell was I don’t recall him being a vocal leader on the pitch and the same has been said of him in the dressing room by ex team mates.

Sol Campbell is an example. He went to countless interviews and didn't get a job. Maybe he is shit, the point is, that plenty of white players are given the opportunity the show that they're shit, time after time after time........Ex black players don't seem to get much of a look in, especially from youth team upwards. Since the premier league started there has only been 9 black managers. Surely, that's lopsided? I think things will change over the next 15 years or so. This generation aren't just going to take it, and there is much more awareness.

[2b2bdoo]

Sol Campbell is an example. He went to countless interviews and didn't get a job. Maybe he is shit, the point is, that plenty of white players are given the opportunity the show that they're shit, time after time after time........Ex black players don't seem to get much of a look in, especially from youth team upwards. Since the premier league started there has only been 9 black managers. Surely, that's lopsided? I think things will change over the next 15 years or so. This generation aren't just going to take it, and there is much more awareness.

Could be because Sol Campbell comes across as a complete wanker.

[J R Hartley]

Correct, and until things change, i'll say the same thing, over and over again.

Btec Sludge

[Tuerto]

Btec Sludge

Maybe you should've got a Btec, then maybe you wouldn't have to work for free....

[J R Hartley]

I stopped reading Tuerto's post when he said "Sol Campbell was 15 years ahead of the game".

He’s only 4 years older than Rio Ferdinand ffs

[J R Hartley]

Maybe you should've got a Btec, then maybe you wouldn't have to work for free....

Ah so rattled you want to start getting personal. I’ll take that as a W.

[Tuerto]

Ah so rattled you want to start getting personal. I’ll take that as a W.

In fairness, it took me about 7 posts, you're on it from post number 1. You can have the W, it's the least i can do for you in these troubled times love

[Joe Gillis]

Well, that's your opinion, it's not mine and countless others. I don't like the man or his politics, as a footballer, he was incredible.

I don't know who the countless others are but there's a difference between being a top player and being world class.
Off the top of my head...Bobby Moore, Franco Baresi, Beckenbauer, Cannevaro, Gentile, Dessailly were all world class as was John Charles though I never saw him play.
Sol Campbell was a top player but to put him in the same league as those players is laughable.

[lardy]

I don't know who the countless others are but there's a difference between being a top player and being world class.
Off the top of my head...Bobby Moore, Franco Baresi, Beckenbauer, Cannevaro, Gentile, Dessailly were all world class as was John Charles though I never saw him play.
Sol Campbell was a top player but to put him in the same league as those players is laughable.

They are all legendary players, among the best of all time.

World class means among the best of their peers. It's fair to say Campbell was, but he's not legendary.

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Leathering

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Are you suggesting that black people in whatever profession should have management or boardroom positions in proportion to their numbers in the said industry, regardless of their ability? That percentages are more important than ability?
To me that sounds like a recipe for failure.

Some people think positive discrimination , ensuring that for example the police force represents the local community , to be a good thing

I think a lot of the people who object to this are hiding something 🤔

[Allez Allez Allez]

Some people think positive discrimination , ensuring that for example the police force represents the local community , to be a good thing

I think a lot of the people who object to this are hiding something ��

There is always the excuse by people that "people should be picked on merit" which is what this chap basically said before moving the goalposts. That is absolutely correct. People should be picked on merit. And, if you were looking at one or two companies and seeing a wholly white boardroom, it would be a case of "nothing to see here, it's only two companies". But, 100 companies? 200 football clubs? It's not positive discrimination to see black people in boardrooms or dugouts. It is, surely, to be expected when roughly 20% of the UK population is non-white, that roughly 20% of the boardrooms are also non-white.

Or, am I missing something here? I mean, thinking about it, more than 20% of cleaning staff are non-white. I guess that is ok though, because who wants to be a cleaner, right?