New owners ?

[Taunton Blue Genie]

I take no pleasure whatever in recalling the evening of the Emiliano Sala tragedy.
I noticed a French newspaper report of a missing plane en route from Nantes to Wales. Unusual route and knowing that the poor young man was travelling overnight I followed up and was reluctantly convinced VERY early what had happened and to whom.

I posted it sometime between 10pm and midnight on *****’ forum and if it still exists you can probably see the disbelieving and quite nasty tirade I received, which went on for about 24 hours until the dreadful truth emerged.

Point being not that I’m claiming some brilliant insight but that it’s very possible for an apparently unlikely truth to be picked up on correctly. Now I don’t either, for one moment, claim that my speculation on this matter is correct, but I thought Taunton , of all people, would know that a majority of opinion on a factual matter is no indication whatsoever that they have it right.

So you still reckon we will suffer a sequence of 5-0 defeats?

[RonnieBird]

No. I didn’t ever say that.
I said we risk a slide which we couldn’t fix unless we’ve got a plan B.

Anyone can go unexpectedly into a spin but so many new and untested players is POSSIBLY increasing this risk. Difference is that we should have retained a strong spine and some old hands such as Sol whom we might not expect to play normally but COULD step in to “settle the horses”.

It’s only common sense and unless I’m wrong I think you’re perfectly intelligent enough to grasp what I’ve said without rearranging the words into something to argue the toss about.

[Rjk]

No. I didn’t ever say that.
I said we risk a slide which we couldn’t fix unless we’ve got a plan B.

Anyone can go unexpectedly into a spin but so many new and untested players is POSSIBLY increasing this risk. Difference is that we should have retained a strong spine and some old hands such as Sol whom we might not expect to play normally but COULD step in to “settle the horses”.

It’s only common sense and unless I’m wrong I think you’re perfectly intelligent enough to grasp what I’ve said without rearranging the words into something to argue the toss about.

we have plenty of old hands still, we had the oldest squad in the division not too long ago, if we hadn't started to take steps to bring more youth through we would have ended in disaster.

if we had kept some of those older guys then that gives us even less opportunity to bring through the younger ones, then in a years time when the old guys are even older, more injury prone, declined ability even more and we have to play someone else the young prospects have no experience and will have stagnated for another year. meaning we would have to try to being in more experience, which comes at a cost.

[jon1959]

No. I didn’t ever say that.
I said we risk a slide which we couldn’t fix unless we’ve got a plan B.

Anyone can go unexpectedly into a spin but so many new and untested players is POSSIBLY increasing this risk. Difference is that we should have retained a strong spine and some old hands such as Sol whom we might not expect to play normally but COULD step in to “settle the horses”.

It’s only common sense and unless I’m wrong I think you’re perfectly intelligent enough to grasp what I’ve said without rearranging the words into something to argue the toss about.

We have 'retained a strong spine'.

We have got 'old hands'. Not as old as last season, but old enough.

Wilson is a loss, as are (in my opinion) Ojo and Bennett. Hoilett, Williams, Osei-Tutu and Bamba hardly contributed last season. If he proves his fitness, I would not be surprised to see Bennett get another contract (on the club's terms, not his agent's).

Collins and Giles look like excellent signings. Just what we need. McGuinness looks promising. Wintle more of an unknown quantity but his record at Crewe (and Crewe's record of producing top players over decades) is also very promising.

We have a clutch of younger players who broke through last season, and another four given shirt numbers this summer - with maybe four or five on top of that given first team match time in pre-season. From all I have seen and read from posters who have watched the u18s and u23s in recent times I am looking forward to Ratcliffe, Bowen, Evans and Davies establishing themselves in the squad like Colwill, Bagan and the others - with one or two becoming regular starters.

If after all that we still need another Plan B - there are more free agents knocking around this summer than in living memory.

I would love us to win the league, but if this is a year of consolidation and blooding a group of quality youth players, that is fine. We can't always have everything all at once. By accident (of finances) or design (we have a plan!) the club seem to have finally created that pathway from the Academy to the first team. Overdue but welcome!

And of course, Bale is due any day soon!

[RonnieBird]

Very good post Jon.
I’d agree with 90% of that.

[the other bob wilson]

No, that’s really not what I said, is it ?
In fact I pointed out that spotting something unlikely once doesn’t mean you’ll get it right next time.

Look , we’ve got some excellent prospects in this squad and it MIGHT all gel together but it’s not professional to rely on that without a plan B. There’s a limit to how many new players you can use without losing all continuity even if they were all seasoned pros who are definitely comfortable at this level, and we ARE pushing that.

Now ,my whole point is that IF that starts going wrong, then there’s no way to do anything till January. Had we held on to Sol, Junior etc then there’d have been a parachute, but we haven’t.

You and I have entirely different philosophies on football. This I’ve noticed.

I don’t disrespect your position in any way but I take a different view. I see no reason whatsoever why we can’t be Liverpool or Tottenham and we should have been building toward that over the last 40 years. It means we can never be satisfied with second best, even if through practicality we sometimes have to temporarily put up with it to some extent.

We had the chance to consolidate two years ago then a squad last year which should have challenged for promotion, but it was wasted. Unfortunate but can’t be helped now. You’ve seen me post that Sri Vincent Tan has been marvellous ,that I don’t expect him to produce endless money and that we must of needs be tighten our belts, BUT unless we’re just going to shut the doors there must be some investment to keep going.We NEED a creative player to draw this makeshift squad together, hence my Harry Wilson comments.

Hasn’t got to be him and IF Lee Tomlin was definitely fit , he’d do just as well. Could be someone else altogether who’d be much cheaper, but if there’s no one like that available we can’t just chuck a youngster or league one player ( no matter how promising) out onto the field and hope for the best. Even on reduced budgets and in hard times we NEED a reliable spine which will keep us going.

I’m not predicting a meltdown and certainly not wanting one, but rather taking the possibility into account and pleading with the club not to leave us with our arses hanging out in one very possible course of events. Let me be frank - that’s plain ****ing STUPID, and we should expect a more intelligent analysis of possible problems from a professional football manager.

I think you're right about us having a different philosophies on the game, but I think you may be misunderstanding me concerning my attitude towards younger players at the club through the last decade or so. I've always believed that any young player has to earn their place in the side, not just be presented with one because they came through the Academy. My concern is that, almost entirely, young players have not even been part of the conversation when it comes to first team selection for nigh on a decade.

Instead, in the past whenever a vacancy, like the current one at left wing back, has cropped up at Cardiff since Dave Jones' days, the attitude has always been okay, lets go and buy someone. That someone has often been nothing special, overpriced and, more often than not, with no sell on value.

The policy has worked to the extent that we've been promoted twice, but it seems to me that the net position we find ourselves in under Vincent Tan's time in charge is slightly worse off on the pitch, an extension to the Ninian Stand added, an Academy which has not been serving its purpose and debt levels that are far higher, although not as threatening, as they were under Peter Ridsdale. It's not surprising in the slightest that Vincent Tan has decided to cut back on the football budget at a time when the parachute payments have stopped and gate receipts have declined.

Like others, I think you're over dramatising things. As has been pointed out by Cardiff 55 and myself, the only young players likely to start on Saturday are Bagan and Giles - the first of whom acquitted himself well in the senior matches he played last season, while Giles, seemingly, had plenty of Championship teams interested in taking him on loan following forty three appearances at this level in 20/21.

That hardly represents the sort of complete overhaul you are claiming. All that has happened is that we've, thankfully, become like most other clubs in having a nucleus of home produced young players who will come into consideration for first team selection if needs be and we've started doing what most other Championship clubs have been doing for years - occasionally recruiting from levels below us, rather than nearly always looking to the Premiership or Championship if there's a gap to be filled which cannot be done so by a youngster already at the club.

[dml1954]

I think you're right about us having a different philosophies on the game, but I think you may be misunderstanding me concerning my attitude towards younger players at the club through the last decade or so. I've always believed that any young player has to earn their place in the side, not just be presented with one because they came through the Academy. My concern is that, almost entirely, young players have not even been part of the conversation when it comes to first team selection for nigh on a decade.

Instead, in the past whenever a vacancy, like the current one at left wing back, has cropped up at Cardiff since Dave Jones' days, the attitude has always been okay, lets go and buy someone. That someone has often been nothing special, overpriced and, more often than not, with no sell on value.

The policy has worked to the extent that we've been promoted twice, but it seems to me that the net position we find ourselves in under Vincent Tan's time in charge is slightly worse off on the pitch, an extension to the Ninian Stand added, an Academy which has not been serving its purpose and debt levels that are far higher, although not as threatening, as they were under Peter Ridsdale. It's not surprising in the slightest that Vincent Tan has decided to cut back on the football budget at a time when the parachute payments have stopped and gate receipts have declined.

Like others, I think you're over dramatising things. As has been pointed out by Cardiff 55 and myself, the only young players likely to start on Saturday are Bagan and Giles - the first of whom acquitted himself well in the senior matches he played last season, while Giles, seemingly, had plenty of Championship teams interested in taking him on loan following forty three appearances at this level in 20/21.

That hardly represents the sort of complete overhaul you are claiming. All that has happened is that we've, thankfully, become like most other clubs in having a nucleus of home produced young players who will come into consideration for first team selection if needs be and we've started doing what most other Championship clubs have been doing for years - occasionally recruiting from levels below us, rather than nearly always looking to the Premiership or Championship if there's a gap to be filled which cannot be done so by a youngster already at the club.

Your summary of Vincent Tans reign is just plain wrong. Everything about the club is better, including the stadium, training and back up facilities (now one of the best in the country). The vast majority (if not all) of our debt is to Tan and the club own the stadium outright. A large part of his debt has also been converted to equity and the remainder will be when financial conditions allow. Prior to his reign we were up to our eyeballs in debt to numerous parties (including the council, HMRC and various banks) and on the verge of bankruptcy. We have been in the Premier League twice and challenging at the top of the Championship for a continuous period of over 11 years. OK the team currently is not as strong as some in the past but every team has to continuously evolve and be rebuilt. The fact that young players are also being brought through now is another indication that things are being done correctly.
You just don't like Tan, never have and wont be happy until he leaves. God help us if he does is what I say.

[surge]

Your summary of Vincent Tans reign is just plain wrong. Everything about the club is better, including the stadium, training and back up facilities (now one of the best in the country). The vast majority (if not all) of our debt is to Tan and the club own the stadium outright. A large part of his debt has also been converted to equity and the remainder will be when financial conditions allow. Prior to his reign we were up to our eyeballs in debt to numerous parties (including the council, HMRC and various banks) and on the verge of bankruptcy. We have been in the Premier League twice and challenging at the top of the Championship for a continuous period of over 11 years. OK the team currently is not as strong as some in the past but every team has to continuously evolve and be rebuilt. The fact that young players are also being brought through now is another indication that things are being done correctly.
You just don't like Tan, never have and wont be happy until he leaves. God help us if he does is what I say.

But are you happy with it just being better? Consider how much money Tan has put into this club and do you think better is enough or should it be much, much better?

[the other bob wilson]

Your summary of Vincent Tans reign is just plain wrong. Everything about the club is better, including the stadium, training and back up facilities (now one of the best in the country). The vast majority (if not all) of our debt is to Tan and the club own the stadium outright. A large part of his debt has also been converted to equity and the remainder will be when financial conditions allow. Prior to his reign we were up to our eyeballs in debt to numerous parties (including the council, HMRC and various banks) and on the verge of bankruptcy. We have been in the Premier League twice and challenging at the top of the Championship for a continuous period of over 11 years. OK the team currently is not as strong as some in the past but every team has to continuously evolve and be rebuilt. The fact that young players are also being brought through now is another indication that things are being done correctly.
You just don't like Tan, never have and wont be happy until he leaves. God help us if he does is what I say.

We reached a Play OFf Final in the season before Vincent Tan formally joined the Board (09/10), so we’ve declined slightly since then if you go by last season’s finish and we’d been using the ground for a year prior to him arriving, so the only thing that’s changed there is the addition of the Ninian Stand extension. We’ve still not got the club owned training facilities our owner was talking about nine years ago at the time of the rebrand and, although I acknowledged that it isn’t as dangerous as it was then, our debt is much bigger than it was in 2010.

If you think back to the eighties and nineties, the idea that we would have a billionaire in charge one day seemed pie in the sky, yet, partly because there are so many billionaires in the game now, the advances made since 10/11 are pretty modest and I’m sure Vincent Tan would have expected a bigger and better return on his investment than he’s seen so far - you can’t blame him at all if he’s decided to rein things in this season.

[RonnieBird]

Some excellent points on both sides of that conversation.
It would be a terrible thing if everyone agreed on every small point.

[stan butler]

But are you happy with it just being better? Consider how much money Tan has put into this club and do you think better is enough or should it be much, much better?

100% we should be in a much better position after the money that's been spent but the way i feel about it is we are still in safe hands and i believe Tan etc have learnt harsh lessons since being here.
Vincent Tan is no mug when it comes to business he took on a business that he knew little about so i'm sure he has learnt quite a lot since owning us and will adapt accordingly.
Some people who want Tan to go have very short memories when it comes to owners.
Ridsdale wasn't to bad but he did a couple of things that raised a few eyebrows like the season ticket yarn and the catering contracts etc.

Sam Hammam got us into all sorts of trouble and debt and still took hundreds of thousands for his companies whilst we were near going under he eventually left us with a 31 million debt in 2004 which would be closer to 49 million today and is still lingering in the hope of taking more money from our club.

I'd have to go back as far as Ricky Wright to find a decent owner. He had visions for the club but knew he couldn't afford to do it on his own which was a shame.

Tan isn't perfect but even if he did sell it won't mean we will have a new owner who will take us to the level of Chelsea or Man City we could get yanks like the Jacks or the Blackburn lot..

[Cleve van Leef]

100% we should be in a much better position after the money that's been spent but the way i feel about it is we are still in safe hands and i believe Tan etc have learnt harsh lessons since being here.
Vincent Tan is no mug when it comes to business he took on a business that he knew little about so i'm sure he has learnt quite a lot since owning us and will adapt accordingly.
Some people who want Tan to go have very short memories when it comes to owners.
Ridsdale wasn't to bad but he did a couple of things that raised a few eyebrows like the season ticket yarn and the catering contracts etc.

Sam Hammam got us into all sorts of trouble and debt and still took hundreds of thousands for his companies whilst we were near going under he eventually left us with a 31 million debt in 2004 which would be closer to 49 million today and is still lingering in the hope of taking more money from our club.

I'd have to go back as far as Ricky Wright to find a decent owner. He had visions for the club but knew he couldn't afford to do it on his own which was a shame.

Tan isn't perfect but even if he did sell it won't mean we will have a new owner who will take us to the level of Chelsea or Man City we could get yanks like the Jacks or the Blackburn lot..

Well said that man,

[The Hooded Claw]

I don’t think anyone is saying that they want Vincent Tan out. The point is that a lot of money has been spent, the debt (though manageable) is high and after all that, we’re still a middling to upper Championship team.
I would expect that there are other clubs in a similar league position to us who haven’t spent nearly as much.

[Rjk]

I don’t think anyone is saying that they want Vincent Tan out. The point is that a lot of money has been spent, the debt (though manageable) is high and after all that, we’re still a middling to upper Championship team.
I would expect that there are other clubs in a similar league position to us who haven’t spent nearly as much.

that's true, there are probably other clubs who've spent even more and done no better as well - I'm thinking about Stoke here in particular

[surge]

Tan made most of his mistakes pre-Warnock and the biggest mistakes since first Neil come in allowing Warnock to spend poorly in premier league winter window and summer window post relegation.

It's taken a long time but I think Tan has a sense of what this club needs to be - the only issue now being he's not able to financially back it as he did when he didn't have a clue.

I though this comment on Loftforwords was interesting though based on i) how non progressive clubs can seemingly do what a progressive club with DoF would do: bringing in element of cohesion and stability and ii) how we're still perceived not to be touching data yet despite our recent crop of signings being well liked by those appreciative of analytics:

Couple things I'd like to pick up on along the analytics theme. There's a bit of misdirection with the wideboy Khan scion in that he actually is very analytics-minded - but in a splashy USA way indulging all sorts of fly-by-night spreadsheet jockey consultants that has been perpetually at odds with the managers it's meant to serve and the competitive situations the club finds itself in. The lack of cohesion and stability has resulted in several potentially canny signings going astray, similar I'd argue to Villa round about the Sherwood era where they had Adama Traore, Gueye (now PSG), Amavi, Veretout (now Roma) Gollini (just signed for Spurs) unsuited and undeveloped, or even Liverpool's early teething troubles with the likes of Iago Aspas and Luis Alberto who went on to have great careers. (Little time capsule here: https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/...-klopp-beware-

Now on the other hand, take Cardiff, who I'd disagree have embraced modernity and departed from traditional models in any substantial way - BUT would argue are counter-intuitively "progressive" nevertheless.

Thing about them is: they are the one club who have gone wayyyyy out of their way to maintain continuity and minimise wastage post-Warnock success. The unlovely style of football has disguised the fact they actively and non-obviously lasered in on Harris and Mick (who no one else would have hired, or will hire after) the exact same way Barnsley have scouted Austrian coaches. It's also the case that picking up lower league gems with resale value like Wintle and Ng is something Mick has a great track record with, despite data still only being something he gets the mop & bucket out for. In a funny way it's like they don't need a director of football, precisely because the "traditional model of having an experienced manager and letting him get on with it" has been boiled down to its most narrow, predictable, and crucially, repeatable essence.

So similar to what you're saying about "this idea that there’s one true way to play football", one could argue that the perception of being a forward-thinking modern club in terms of structure and recruitment has become distorted by the currently dominant signifiers of science, pretty football and cosmopolitanism.

https://loftforwords.fansnetwork.co....contenders/#13