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Thread: Afghanistan Debate. Why aren't Tom Tughendhat and Tobias Elwood in more senior Government posts

  1. #21

    Re: Afghanistan Debate. Why aren't Tom Tughendhat and Tobias Elwood in more senior Government posts

    Quote Originally Posted by life on mars View Post
    And before Trump Obama made the same troop withdrawal quote to apease public opinion the only difference is its on Bidens watch, its not a huge force they have the same troop numbers in Europe and South Korea.
    Biden could have made his win choice and kept something in place in the name of peace for innocent women and children.
    And before Obama!...don't stop there mate! this has been a problem for decades.

  2. #22
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    Re: Afghanistan Debate. Why aren't Tom Tughendhat and Tobias Elwood in more senior Government posts

    The full wording of the Stop The War Coalition statement on Afghanistan that Richard Burgon has supported and publicised, just to put the headlines about 'reparations' into their right context:

    https://www.stopwar.org.uk/article/s...n-afghanistan/

    There have been 240,000 people killed in Afghanistan since 2001 as a direct result of the war - including 457 UK service personnel. There has never been a stable government or stable civil society. There has been a space for people (especially women and various minorities) to find work and get an education. But it is precarious and that space could only be maintained by a continuing western military presence with all the human and financial cost that goes with that (including regular drone strikes on wedding parties!) It was never going to continue indefinitely (Trump and Biden agreed on that). It was never going to be another Germany or South Korea.

    The only way forward now is full support for refugees and those most at risk from the Taliban, combined with multilateral diplomatic and financial engagement with the new government. The economy is broken. Helping to rebuild the country is probably the best way to protect the people and avoid the worst effects of radicalisation. It already appears that different parts of the Taliban are looking for international backing in their internal power struggle - creating an opening for a less dangerous future. That is what the STW Coalition is arguing and it sounds right to me.

    We still have a fruit loop in charge, though.

  3. #23

    Re: Afghanistan Debate. Why aren't Tom Tughendhat and Tobias Elwood in more senior Government posts

    Quote Originally Posted by jon1959 View Post
    The full wording of the Stop The War Coalition statement on Afghanistan that Richard Burgon has supported and publicised, just to put the headlines about 'reparations' into their right context:

    https://www.stopwar.org.uk/article/s...n-afghanistan/

    There have been 240,000 people killed in Afghanistan since 2001 as a direct result of the war - including 457 UK service personnel. There has never been a stable government or stable civil society. There has been a space for people (especially women and various minorities) to find work and get an education. But it is precarious and that space could only be maintained by a continuing western military presence with all the human and financial cost that goes with that (including regular drone strikes on wedding parties!) It was never going to continue indefinitely (Trump and Biden agreed on that). It was never going to be another Germany or South Korea.

    The only way forward now is full support for refugees and those most at risk from the Taliban, combined with multilateral diplomatic and financial engagement with the new government. The economy is broken. Helping to rebuild the country is probably the best way to protect the people and avoid the worst effects of radicalisation. It already appears that different parts of the Taliban are looking for international backing in their internal power struggle - creating an opening for a less dangerous future. That is what the STW Coalition is arguing and it sounds right to me.

    We still have a fruit loop in charge, though.
    The stop the war statement says "The British government should take a lead in offering a refugee programme and reparations to rebuild Afghanistan"..

    Nothing wrong with the first part, yes we should take a lead in the refugee program. However the reparations part concerns me.

    I do suspect that at some stage more prosperous countries will have to give financial help to Afghanistan. But are STW saying that we should immediately give cash to a regime that when it was previously in power was brutal and repressive? How would we know that they would use the money for the benefit of the Afghan people.

    And if we call them reparations and give them to the Taliban what wrong are we righting there?

  4. #24

    Re: Afghanistan Debate. Why aren't Tom Tughendhat and Tobias Elwood in more senior Government posts

    Quote Originally Posted by jon1959 View Post
    The full wording of the Stop The War Coalition statement on Afghanistan that Richard Burgon has supported and publicised, just to put the headlines about 'reparations' into their right context:

    https://www.stopwar.org.uk/article/s...n-afghanistan/

    There have been 240,000 people killed in Afghanistan since 2001 as a direct result of the war - including 457 UK service personnel. There has never been a stable government or stable civil society. There has been a space for people (especially women and various minorities) to find work and get an education. But it is precarious and that space could only be maintained by a continuing western military presence with all the human and financial cost that goes with that (including regular drone strikes on wedding parties!) It was never going to continue indefinitely (Trump and Biden agreed on that). It was never going to be another Germany or South Korea.

    The only way forward now is full support for refugees and those most at risk from the Taliban, combined with multilateral diplomatic and financial engagement with the new government. The economy is broken. Helping to rebuild the country is probably the best way to protect the people and avoid the worst effects of radicalisation. It already appears that different parts of the Taliban are looking for international backing in their internal power struggle - creating an opening for a less dangerous future. That is what the STW Coalition is arguing and it sounds right to me.

    We still have a fruit loop in charge, though.

    Yeah true enough, but can you suggest an alternative fruit loop who’d be better ?
    I mean one in politics so who COULD get the job ? I should imagine that the average newsagent or bus conductor could do the job better.

    Similarly, there’s no way forward on this. If there was ever any point other than giving politicians something to talk bollocks about and to embezzle money where no one can check, it’s over now .

    The people there get to run their own affairs whether we like their ideas or not ( which is in fact right and proper ) and they’ll probably be left alone for a while,

    File it.

  5. #25

    Re: Afghanistan Debate. Why aren't Tom Tughendhat and Tobias Elwood in more senior Government posts

    By the way, and with utter total respect to the poor poor bastards who were conned into giving their precious brave and honourable lives then betrayed,

    - does anyone here think it is, or ever has been, our business or responsibility to tell the people of that far away region how they should run their affairs or which religion they choose to follow ?

  6. #26

    Re: Afghanistan Debate. Why aren't Tom Tughendhat and Tobias Elwood in more senior Government posts

    Just watching a bit of the Lords debates which they are repeating now (I am a glutton for punishment and just seem an excellent speech from Lord Haine who I don't normally agree with. He was pointing out tha he was a junior defence minster in the Blair government and he did not attempt to castigate this government or Biden but instead said that all governments who have had any power in the last 20 years bear a responsibility for this mess (including Lib Dems who of course were in government from 2010 to 2015 and seem to have spent a lot of time since saying that all the good things of that government were down to them and all the bad things were the nasty tories!). Think he is quite right there.

    Lord West the former Labour Defence Minister spoke in similar terms

  7. #27

    Re: Afghanistan Debate. Why aren't Tom Tughendhat and Tobias Elwood in more senior Government posts

    Quote Originally Posted by jon1959 View Post
    The full wording of the Stop The War Coalition statement on Afghanistan that Richard Burgon has supported and publicised, just to put the headlines about 'reparations' into their right context:

    https://www.stopwar.org.uk/article/s...n-afghanistan/

    There have been 240,000 people killed in Afghanistan since 2001 as a direct result of the war - including 457 UK service personnel. There has never been a stable government or stable civil society. There has been a space for people (especially women and various minorities) to find work and get an education. But it is precarious and that space could only be maintained by a continuing western military presence with all the human and financial cost that goes with that (including regular drone strikes on wedding parties!) It was never going to continue indefinitely (Trump and Biden agreed on that). It was never going to be another Germany or South Korea.

    The only way forward now is full support for refugees and those most at risk from the Taliban, combined with multilateral diplomatic and financial engagement with the new government. The economy is broken. Helping to rebuild the country is probably the best way to protect the people and avoid the worst effects of radicalisation. It already appears that different parts of the Taliban are looking for international backing in their internal power struggle - creating an opening for a less dangerous future. That is what the STW Coalition is arguing and it sounds right to me.

    We still have a fruit loop in charge, though.
    What the above doesn't mention is the US had more personnel in their Consulate in Kabul than soldiers 'on the ground'. Their presence was sufficient to keep the Taliban on the margins, and the Afghan government to maintain order.

  8. #28

    Re: Afghanistan Debate. Why aren't Tom Tughendhat and Tobias Elwood in more senior Government posts

    Trouble with stop the war statement crew , they are an attempt to feed the students or win attention from the margins of their party , many other wrongs and atrocities in tge world ie China, Russia Iran, South America are whitewashed, its all about the headline .

  9. #29

    Re: Afghanistan Debate. Why aren't Tom Tughendhat and Tobias Elwood in more senior Government posts

    Quote Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY View Post
    Johnson is shocking

    I cannot believe this arsehole is running the country
    Probably the hardest tenure of a PM since WW2

    No opinion on how its been handled but itís certainly easy to criticise.

  10. #30

    Re: Afghanistan Debate. Why aren't Tom Tughendhat and Tobias Elwood in more senior Government posts

    Quote Originally Posted by WJ99mobile View Post
    Probably the hardest tenure of a PM since WW2

    No opinion on how its been handled but itís certainly easy to criticise.
    It's a period of history that has been turbulent to say the least , Brexit, Covid, Trump , BLM , Climate ,Economic Chaos etc .

    I do wonder if any other buffon could have done any worse or better something I don't know , can't judge compare Boris fully as it's not normal times, I'm sure though folk who say he's a buffon are right as they could easily have managed these last few years .

    The only thing I feel personally feel, is the alternative
    ( Corbyn vehicle ) was a risk and a worry.

  11. #31

    Re: Afghanistan Debate. Why aren't Tom Tughendhat and Tobias Elwood in more senior Government posts

    Quote Originally Posted by WJ99mobile View Post
    Probably the hardest tenure of a PM since WW2

    No opinion on how its been handled but it’s certainly easy to criticise.
    indeed

    but I am not sure many on here will even entertain that fact

  12. #32

    Re: Afghanistan Debate. Why aren't Tom Tughendhat and Tobias Elwood in more senior Government posts

    Quote Originally Posted by WJ99mobile View Post
    Probably the hardest tenure of a PM since WW2

    No opinion on how its been handled but it’s certainly easy to criticise.
    Because of Covid? Boris didn't believe it was real, that does make dealing with it quite hard.

  13. #33

    Re: Afghanistan Debate. Why aren't Tom Tughendhat and Tobias Elwood in more senior Government posts

    Quote Originally Posted by blue matt View Post
    indeed

    but I am not sure many on here will even entertain that fact
    Except so far this thread is just an echo chamber of excuses and sympathy for Boris. Probably better targets for your sympathy right now, like a bunch of people so desperate to escape whatever faces them that they lose their lives falling off the undercarriage of a plane.

  14. #34

    Re: Afghanistan Debate. Why aren't Tom Tughendhat and Tobias Elwood in more senior Government posts

    Quote Originally Posted by blue matt View Post
    indeed

    but I am not sure many on here will even entertain that fact
    Tory boy , always has been

  15. #35

    Re: Afghanistan Debate. Why aren't Tom Tughendhat and Tobias Elwood in more senior Government posts

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Cartman View Post
    Because of Covid? Boris didn't believe it was real, that does make dealing with it quite hard.
    Boris is a public school born into money asshole who is completely out of his depth

    Theresa May had more balls than him and she was hopeless

  16. #36

    Re: Afghanistan Debate. Why aren't Tom Tughendhat and Tobias Elwood in more senior Government posts

    Quote Originally Posted by WJ99mobile View Post
    Probably the hardest tenure of a PM since WW2

    No opinion on how its been handled but itís certainly easy to criticise.
    I don't care , he's not up to the job and if he was an army captain his troops would shoot him

  17. #37

    Re: Afghanistan Debate. Why aren't Tom Tughendhat and Tobias Elwood in more senior Government posts

    Quote Originally Posted by life on mars View Post
    It's a period of history that has been turbulent to say the least , Brexit, Covid, Trump , BLM , Climate ,Economic Chaos etc .

    I do wonder if any other buffon could have done any worse or better something I don't know , can't judge compare Boris fully as it's not normal times, I'm sure though folk who say he's a buffon are right as they could easily have managed these last few years .

    The only thing I feel personally feel, is the alternative
    ( Corbyn vehicle ) was a risk and a worry.
    Christ youíve been brainwashed. We have an absolute clown and liar running the country and all you can come up with is but, but Corbyn.

    I think youíll find Corbyn was right all along. Voted against us invading Afghanistan. And please donít come back with yes but Corbyn would have had tea with the Taliban etc, etc. Successive governments have invaded other countries, killing and maiming thousands and where has it got us. We are at more danger now from terrorist attacks than weíve ever been and the country is back to square one.

  18. #38

    Re: Afghanistan Debate. Why aren't Tom Tughendhat and Tobias Elwood in more senior Government posts

    Quote Originally Posted by Elwood Blues View Post
    The stop the war statement says "The British government should take a lead in offering a refugee programme and reparations to rebuild Afghanistan"..

    Nothing wrong with the first part, yes we should take a lead in the refugee program. However the reparations part concerns me.

    I do suspect that at some stage more prosperous countries will have to give financial help to Afghanistan. But are STW saying that we should immediately give cash to a regime that when it was previously in power was brutal and repressive? How would we know that they would use the money for the benefit of the Afghan people.

    And if we call them reparations and give them to the Taliban what wrong are we righting there?
    Isn't this a solution that has gone on for eternity.

    The good guys finally stop trying to kill the bad guys , they shake hands and try to get along.
    The good guys will make loadsa money helping to rebuild the damge they have done (helped by the bad guys )
    The bad guys will make loadsa money doing whatever suits them (helped by the good guys.)

    Human rights ? that will always be trumped by money I am afraid. Lets do some token hand wringing , we have tried everything else.

    My only question is .

    Are there really any good guys ?

  19. #39

    Re: Afghanistan Debate. Why aren't Tom Tughendhat and Tobias Elwood in more senior Government posts

    Doesn't politics have its own separate place on this board?

    I have just read the rest of the posts, people bickering about their favourite politicians .

    Get it gone from here.

  20. #40

    Re: Afghanistan Debate. Why aren't Tom Tughendhat and Tobias Elwood in more senior Government posts

    Most people seem to just carry on listening to these politicians who are creating nothing but hot air.

    Did anyone notice my earlier comments or are they just unthinkable?

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