Reply With QuotePicking holes in the way he's decided to articulate his point is pety.Originally Posted by jon1959
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we know that al qaeda had training camps in Afghanistan, that's no secret, the Shorbak area ( on the Pakistan border ) had a massive training camp, the size of a Village with different compounds teaching different activities
should the " Civilised World " have ignored them and just prayed that your own country was not subject to a terror attack. ?? ? ? then when your country was attacked and innocent lives lost we could have held a inquest into how " Mr Terrorist " travelled to Pakistan, then onwards to Afghanistan and attended a terror school for 3 months
we all know we had to do something about the issue back then
Picking holes in the way he's decided to articulate his point is pety.
I'm just interested in the point Graham has made and want to understand it. Nothing petty. Although most of his posts are wind ups!
He seems to be saying the USA had a right to invade Afghanistan after 9/11. I disagree, but that is an old argument. But he is saying the point of the invasion in 2001 was to remove (get) the Taliban? I thought it was to remove the Taliban from government in order to destroy Al Qaeda? They partly succeeded - although the biggest successes against Al Qaeda were in Pakistan! But after 20 years, the Taliban are back (they never went away), a corrupt puppet regime has collapsed, and 240,000 people are dead as a direct result of the war and occupation. I don't believe the USA and its allies had the legal or moral right to invade, and if they 'got' the Taliban they didn't stay got for long!
Those marches are pointless in my opinion it's a shame the same people don't use their energy to march to raise awareness in helping ex servicemen.
As for what your saying above i've witnessed and experienced enough to not get into debate on that subject.
The Sudge emailing the club was just a joke 🙄
Just my opinion but i believe the US and co will be back there within a couple of years. It's just a waiting game now
A kicking
Young men
Not Bush and Blair
The answer to the question .......what would you have done ......was clearly not invade Iraq and Afghanistan!
It's a complete disaster , young soldiers have died for nothing and terrorists still operate
Utter waste of lives
If a government launches an illegal war in another country then I think protesting about it is the right thing to do
Those of us that marched wanted the servicemen prevented from going to Iraq and Afghanistan in the first place , we wanted them here , not sent home in body bags or with their legs blown off . There wouldn't be a need for help the heroes to raise so much money if that stupid war hadn't have injured so many young men
If you think that's pointless and those marches are a waste of time because they didn't stop the illegal war then that's fine but you have to stand up for what you believe in
The anti war protesting did nothing to change what the goverment decided.
Sadly they didn't give two hoots about the marches nor the soldiers that were deployed.
If people think that war is over i think they will be surprised.
The US in in opinion are waiting for certain things to unfold before using a new already planned strategy out there..
If Britain is dumb enough to try and join America in another assault then people will protest again , this time in even bigger numbers . People will now know what a complete waste of time the invasion was and I would be very surprised if the protests fell on deaf ears.
If I was a soldier and it was announced we were invading the middle east I would look for another job . Its great that we have people who are brave enough to join the army and protect our country but this would be another bloodbath .
Utter madness
How many would have died in terror attacks if we had left the camps alone and given them a free pass to run these camps ? ? ?
the option to ignore the situation was never really on the table
unless of course you think these camps didn't exist and was all just a Lie
You can't just decide i'm not going there if that's where your sent that's where you will go.
You can't give them a note off your mam or dad asking not to be sent to nasty countries due to you being up all night with an upset tummy
I think most of the Bush Blair attack following 911 was based on a load of lies ......don't you ?
Don't tell me you believe there were weapons of mass destruction and saddam was a major player in the terror stakes ?
How long do you think it will take to destroy any new terror camps and do you honestly believe that the west is telling the truth about them and the ones they said they found and destroyed ?
I know that but I would look to people to solve problems rather than send young men to their deaths
If we have another conflict as you predict then more young men who joined the army to travel the world , help people , gain friendships etc are going to be slaughtered
It doesn't seem to be working
Why is it its British lads who are sent in under the shield of America to die ?
Why don't we keep out of this ?
We are not the worlds policeman anymore
I don't know how comfortable I am with being non-interventionist. It appears to have become the default position of the left but my view is that we should try to something to help people who are effectively held prisoner in a system that doesn't accept them. Whatever the true purpose of the war in Afghanistan, the withdrawal will cause the population of that country to have a shittier life. If I see someone in the street getting a crap deal, I stick up for them, I don't really see how this is any different.
Not sure about Lie's about Afghanistan which is what I am discussing
Do I Believe al qaeda had training camps in Afghanistan ? ? ? ? Yes I do, A friend of mine ( the ex-royal Marine ( and his young afghan friend ) who was working for the British embassy have chatted to me about them and said they were not a secret, they were very well known ) , I believe them and really don't think they are part of some government conspiracy
Did Iraq have WMD, yes of course they did, the Halabja massacre of the Kurds point to that, Sarin, Mustard gas and cyanide was used ( from memory ) lets not paint Saddam and his regime as innocent in the use of nerve agents against the Kurds, do I think he was a major player in terror stakes, not to us, I suspect the Kurds might say he was
I Guess drone strikes will keep the camps from running openly, but of course that will not go down well with some
By all accounts the camps were Bulldozed, not sure why they would lie about that ? ? ?
Blair and Bush told us Saddam had weapons of mass destruction primed and ready to go
That's been found out to be totally false
I don't believe anything that comes out of the USA and UK on those regions apart from the taliban are savages
Watched the programme and didn’t think as much of it as some do. It came across as self justifying by Bush who had an unfortunate habit of seeming to find the whole thing a little funny at times. It also didn’t really tell the whole story did it in view of recent developments- there was a faint air of triumphalism at the end that was inappropriate.
The withdrawal of allied troops amounts to the worst of all worlds really. If you weren’t in favour of the invasion originally then it’s come far too late and, if you were, you’re left feeling why the allies didn’t see things through and, surely, you have to question whether the whole thing was worth it as it seems to me that the Taliban are back and stronger than they were in the nineties.
My feelings are on the anti intervention side with one of the reasons for that being that the intervention always seems very selective in terms of the size, power and military strength of the country to be “intervened” in. However, the Soviet experience in Afghanistan offered evidence that there was some under estimating in the nineties as to what the allies were getting themselves into.
Trying to be as impartial as possible, I find it very hard to come up with a defence of how things have turned out or of the original intervention.
The Allies were in Afghanistan before 9/11.
Bush seemed to think the fact that no other attack, or major one, had occurred since on USA soil seemed to justify his invasions of Afghanistan. I guess that’s debatable…
Right, when will you lefties and snowflakes learn?
If, whenever there is a terrorist attack, you have to be seen to do something or they will just keep on doing it.
Just like when a normal British person commits a crime, if it goes unpunished, they'll keep on doing it.
I was working in London when the bombs went off and my hotel was a couple of doors up from the bus. The county Hotel.
They caused utter carnage that day, the phone networks were cut off and my kids were distraught they couldn't get hold of me.
We couldn't get in our hotel until midnight.
And when we did, there was empty blood transfusion bags all over the entrance outside where they were using the lobby as some sort of makeshift hospital.
I'll never forget the following day, when I got back home, I took the family bowling and after a couple of throws I started feeling strange , I went to the toilet and felt giddy and shaky, for a couple of minutes, like adrenalin was wearing off or something.
Can you imagine being in New York that day and witnessing that carnage as it was unfolding?
Can you imagine a relative dying in either attack?
Get a grip mun, you'd want your government to do something and do something fast.
Just like when America nuked Japan.
Should they have dropped it the bombs?
Damn right they should have, I'd have dropped it twice too
That's going well so far.
I like perpetual violence, sounds like you do to.
This post could have been condensed somewhat , last paragraph unnecessary and irrelevant.
C-
I think the people who are not learning is the likes of yourself
So we had to be seen to be doing something ?
And doing something stopped terrorist attacks ?
Well our invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan didn't stop terrorist attacks did it ?
Do you think dropping , in your case , two nuclear bombs on Afghanistan will stop terrorist attacks ?
Why is it that many criminals have lots and lots of convictions by the time they are middle aged?
Punishment hasn't stopped them , has it ?
Actually, whatever else it achieved, the invasion of Afghanistan almost certainly prevented the kind of mass-scale organised terrorist attacks against the west as we saw on 9/11.
Prior to the war Al Qaeda had a base to prepare and fund such attacks. After it, they didn't. The US had to do something and the west rightly fell in behind the US.
Thats not to say other mistakes werent made, but you cant guarantee how these things will turn out, and you cant guarantee that a pacifist approach would have ended better.
What if we didnt go to war? What if Al Qaeda planned another attack and London was next? What if they struck a deal with China on resources and the islamo-fascist Taliban of the early 2000s became established and grew? What is the whole middle east fell? What of the generation or two of Afghan women who have received an education in the last two decades?
We only know the rights and wrongs of the Afghanistan war because thats what happened. We dont know what would have happened if it didnt occur. Things may have turned out far far worse.
Thats the issue with people like Corbyn. They can stay out of everything and take no responsibility, but then by default you take responsibility for the atrocities occuring when you dont act.
For me, on balance, Iraq was a political error. Afghanistan wasn't. The withdrawal was clearly botched, but the war itself was justified given that the Taliban did not hand over those who planned and committed 9/11. The US had no choice
Iraq was a catastrophic mistake , based on lies . Let's not mess about here . Blair , his MPs and the conservatives who helped push through the invasion have blood on their hands .
You invade a country to get hold of a small number of fanatics who think they go to paradise with Virgins if they commit jihad ?
These fanatics are lining up , the invasion of Afghanistan will be followed by another one . America and it seems Britain never learns , you will never defeat terrorism , people who want to kill others over their beliefs cannot be stopped .
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