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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY
I don't disagree Sludge. The catholic church is implicit in 100's of years of cover up.
What I do see is some religious based organisations (not churches) doing some good work in this area. As an example, LWF in Uganda work in refugee communities (about 400000 people) and are one of the best organisations that help protect child, better in fact than some non-religious ones.
I think religion no matter what faith is basically and fundamentally evil.
Religion pervades every culture on the Earth. It seems as though were born to do it.
I find Dawkins' ideas on the reasons for religion fairly convincing.
I.e. it is an evolutionary side-effect of a beneficial trait - believing what the elders have told you when you were growing up.
this berry is poisonous, this is the correct way to cook this plant, we don't eat this animal etc etc are easy to see how that is a beneficial trait
this is then twisted and used to control people and wield power by people over the centuries.
That isn't to say that people don't take positives from organised religions today as well.
It can be a way of meeting and making friends, can provide pastoral care to vulnerable people, gives people a mechanism for thoughtfulness and self reflection, helps people form a cohesive cultural identity. Reaching out to the vulnerable with charitable acts etc
I think that this is just people doing good and the religion os providing the framework for that, so the flip side is probably also true - the murdering, discrimination, child abuse, judging and other terrible things that people do in the name of religion aren't because of the religion, but the religion is just the mechanism that is being used by bad people to do them.
as such I don't think religions are inherently good or bad - they are just something we are programmed to do. and perhaps we should approach them with that in mind.
I think we see this trait manifest itself in other ways also - how many non religious people HAVE to eat turkey on christmas day - even if they don't particularly like it and don't eat it any other day of the year.
How many people support the monarchy - not because they think it is the best system for a head of state, but because they feel that that is the way that WE as a nation do things and to change it seems contrary to our traditions (the royal family absolutely play on this btw)
Sludge, if you ever get the chance, do some reading up on the resistance groups formed by priests, nuns and the congregation, who fought against Hitler, Franco and Mussolini. It's fascinating stuff and shows that having a puerile outlook on those with faith is a very big mistake to make.
I agree
I am afraid that as the vast majority of roman catholics look to the Vatican and the pope for how they should behave ......which is very odd ......the actions of partisans , small in number against the fascists , is not really good enough to convince me that a lot of religious people are incredibly stupid and need to be treated like kids
20 pager on way I reckon
Not all Catholic people look to the pope, not all of them agree with everything that is said by him or written in the Bible, or said by the priest etc. It doesn't really work like that. There will always be hard liners, but I'd say that the vast majority aren't that interested in what the pope has to say, especially those in more developed cultures.
In my opinion, your view is very narrow and you're pandering to the reactionary by lumping everyone who has faith into the same category. Big mistake in my opinion. Would you say that all poor people are just lazy, people who suffer with mental health are weak etc? Of course you wouldn't, as that would be generalising, which almost certainly panders to the most extreme amongst us, and as a result, ends In people being persecuted because of a certain belief etc
During WW2 the catholic church and priests bravely helped highlight and advocate against the Nazi's Kinder-Euthanasie policy - a policy that was essentially killing disabled children. However, the Catholic 'church' (as an institution) didn't extend that same love or bravery towards the Jews in Germany who were being shipped of to concentration camps - despite being told and informed by their some of their own Priests.
In fact the biggest issue the Catholic Church had with the Nazis was that the Nazis wanted to stop resources being sent to the Catholic church. Incidentally, the Catholic church helped many Nazis flee to south America and other places immediately after the war to escape prosecution.
However we have to separate the 'church' and people. There are many many Catholics and priests who opposed the Nazis and lost their lives for it. In particular the Jesuits. But the Catholic church as an 'institution' and huge numbers of followers went along with the Nazis.
Yes it does , that's how these bodies survive . Money and people indoctrination others .
The vast majority of roman catholics look towards the Vatican and the pope for guidance as he is their spiritual leader on earth
They don't practice what they preach but the catholic church is against homosexuality , sex before marriage and abortion .
I am afraid either you are hiding a secret religious leaning or you are not facing reality
The comparison with mental ill health is of course nonsense
People are not taught to be mentally ill , or go every Sunday to a place that helps them to be mentally ill
Mental illness happens
To compare saying something like pull yourself together to a mentally ill person to the fact that roman catholics are brainwashed is ludicrous
Why would I say that mentally ill people are weak or the poor are lazy in the same way that religious people are brainwashed ?
Mentally ill people are ill , poor people are poor
Anybody who goes to church on a Sunday and has a priest read to them the latest directive from his holiness the pope is brainwashed .
We sing cardiff city are the greatest team in football the world has ever seen ......but we don't believe it , its clearly nonsense
I think defending the right for someone to believe in God is up to the individual , if you want to do that then carry on but I am saying religious people are indoctrinated , especially roman catholics and if someone is defending the right of someone to believe in a bloke sitting on a cloud then its 2021 and there are people still waiting for evidence he exists , never mind having people like you tell me I can't generalise about people who are clearly devoted to something that clearly doesn't seem to be there .
Some poor people are lazy, some are not. Some rich people are lazy, some are not.
ALL those "with religious faith" are deluded. They are also dangerous. I give you Afghanistan and the Taliban...
Heck, this is going way too far.
Forgive me.
(Credit to Bill Hicks.)
Ah, get it now
I know that mentally illness exists
I know that poverty exists
It's pretty apparent that God is a delusion
Therefore I think it's fair to say religious people are deluded and blindly follow the words of a book taught to them through the generations , like learning your lines
I think that's a pretty fair assumption , if you think that's an unfair generalisation then I am afraid that's the way it is based upon my life experience and the complete and utter lack of evidence that god exists .
Fair enough, that's how you see it. I don't agree. I'll leave it now, because these threads just repeat themselves and nobody really listens to anyone elses point of view or even tries to see both sides of the discussion.
One thing i will say, you have no business saying that i may have some secret religious leaning, like you're attempting to out me, or like it's some kind of sordid belief. If i was religious, i'd say so, why wouldn't i?
Problem is our life experience is in reality very limited Sludge. It's worth finding-out what those at the more liberal end of the religious spectrum believe as it's certainly not the above. I say that as a card-carrying Humanist.
And i'm saying it as someone who has no belief in god whatsoever.
You can't make an assumption and try and back it up with a generalisation. Think about what you've just written.
You (we) don't know any of these things. The brain is a system that is continually trying to prove its own existence. We think we are in control of our brains but it's completely the other way around.
Ask yourself this question. Are human beings getting closer and closer to developing conscious and independent AI? If the answer is yes, then ask yourself if it's possible that another life form could have already made simulations populated by conscious beings? If the answer is yes, then where does our existence fit it?
Is the concept of a creator then a delusion?
I'd also recommend reading Sophie's World by Jostein Gaarder.
I go with science
We know mental illness exists
We are about as certain as we can be that once you die , that's it , no afterlife
If that's a generalisation , I am guilty
People aren't taught to be poor either but I understood what he was getting at.
Don't you know he's the darling of ccmb and therefore it is acceptable behaviour according to the ccmb masses when he decides to 'go on a wind up'
You will be labeled a bully if you go against this view. Tread carefully.
I'm treading 'out' of this thread
Smart move.I'm treading 'out' of this thread
You are wasting your time on this one mate
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