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Thread: Cultural Appropriation

  1. #26

    Re: Cultural Appropriation

    Quote Originally Posted by Rjk View Post
    I've got no doubt that there are many instances of cultural appropriation and it has a damaging effect on the livelihoods and culture of minority groups.

    I think part of the issue is with the internet these days people's culture is changing faster than ever.

    I am vaguely aware of numbers of young people in the UK and USA with a genuine interests in Korean pop groups. Not my cup of tea, but each to their own.
    If they grow up listening to k-pop, then some of them start to make their own music - if they do it in the style of a korean artist - or even with some Korean lyrics - is that cultural appropriation ? or is that what their culture now IS? should they instead make a different style of music they have no knowledge of or interest in?

    I think if everyone was forced to "stay in their own lane" so to speak it would be even more damaging than the alternative.

    As for Cheryl Cole - it does seem as though she's perhaps not the ideal choice for this podcast. I can definitely understand the frustration black artists must have when this sort of thing goes on.
    On the other hand she is REALLY famous - she's not got the gig because she knows the most about R&B out of any potential presenter, but because she's a huge name, and more people will probably listen to it with her name on it. If that ends up getting people interested in R&B who wouldn't otherwise have listened then it might not be all bad.

    As a middle aged white guy in the UK it is pretty hard to think of an example that is anything like the same though.
    I don't think that your comparison with Korean pop music is the best, in my opinion. I guess that the angle of this article is UK based, and relating to black people in this country being overlooked for jobs where they maybe best suited. Not my words, that of the article, before anyone wants to have a go.

    Historically, South Koreans have not been discriminated against in the UK, or by Western Culture, not that i am aware of anyway. Although i'm sure Feedback will find something in his locker from the 11th century So, the comparison you makeis sort of coming from an historical level playing field, it's not like white culture has had a negative effect on South Korean people in terms of progress and opportunity. To me, there has to be some historical context.

  2. #27

    Re: Cultural Appropriation

    Quote Originally Posted by Croesy Blue View Post
    I saw a mad one the other day where an Italian woman commented on a recipe page saying it was cultural appropriation to put chilli on spaghetti (ignoring the fact Italians stole it from Asians in the first place I suppose!)

    I think like anything these days the genuine cases where it’s happening are getting drowned out by too many people saying anything is cultural appropriation.
    Yeah, stuff like that is nonsense.

  3. #28

    Re: Cultural Appropriation

    Quote Originally Posted by Tuerto View Post
    I don't think that your comparison with Korean pop music is the best, in my opinion. I guess that the angle of this article is UK based, and relating to black people in this country being overlooked for jobs where they maybe best suited. Not my words, that of the article, before anyone wants to have a go.

    Historically, South Koreans have not been discriminated against in the UK, or by Western Culture, not that i am aware of anyway. Although i'm sure Feedback will find something in his locker from the 11th century So, the comparison you makeis sort of coming from an historical level playing field, it's not like white culture has had a negative effect on South Korean people in terms of progress and opportunity. To me, there has to be some historical context.
    I do see the argument in this line of thinking, but I think endlessly saying that skin colour matters so much just amplifies difference, which is the opposite to what we should be doing.

    BAME people are generally over-represented on TV compared to the population, and thats fine, but it means it cant be used as an argument all the time to say they are not. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-suggests.html

    It's all very messy and I think as a multicultural society we should all learn from and enjoy a variety of cultures, without guardians or political agendas deciding that it is for one or other culture based on our skin colours or where our parents happened to be born.

    I just think identity politics is like a hammer slowly knocking away at a small fracture in society

  4. #29

    Re: Cultural Appropriation

    Quote Originally Posted by Tuerto View Post
    I don't think that your comparison with Korean pop music is the best, in my opinion. I guess that the angle of this article is UK based, and relating to black people in this country being overlooked for jobs where they maybe best suited. Not my words, that of the article, before anyone wants to have a go.

    Historically, South Koreans have not been discriminated against in the UK, or by Western Culture, not that i am aware of anyway. Although i'm sure Feedback will find something in his locker from the 11th century So, the comparison you makeis sort of coming from an historical level playing field, it's not like white culture has had a negative effect on South Korean people in terms of progress and opportunity. To me, there has to be some historical context.
    that example was more to do with cultures changing rapidly at the moment.
    if one of my kids develops a deep interest in black music and then spends their whole childhood voraciously listening to it at every opportunity then is that not their culture as well?

    it may not be the same as someone who is black appreciating it, there may not be the same link to the lyrics etc but if it's the only culture they know then that's their culture in my opinion, so I think we may have to accept as time goes on that cultures are going to merge a lot more than historically.
    I think what is important is not preventing that, but ensuring that people from minority cultures aren't excluded from the success and opportunities associated with it.

  5. #30

    Re: Cultural Appropriation

    Quote Originally Posted by Rjk View Post
    that example was more to do with cultures changing rapidly at the moment.
    if one of my kids develops a deep interest in black music and then spends their whole childhood voraciously listening to it at every opportunity then is that not their culture as well?

    it may not be the same as someone who is black appreciating it, there may not be the same link to the lyrics etc but if it's the only culture they know then that's their culture in my opinion, so I think we may have to accept as time goes on that cultures are going to merge a lot more than historically.
    I think what is important is not preventing that, but ensuring that people from minority cultures aren't excluded from the success and opportunities associated with it.
    Look, this shit isn't hard to understand..

    If your son doesn't listen to Black music then he's a racist
    If he does listen to Black music then he's a racist.

    It's simple.

  6. #31

    Re: Cultural Appropriation

    Quote Originally Posted by Rjk View Post
    that example was more to do with cultures changing rapidly at the moment.
    if one of my kids develops a deep interest in black music and then spends their whole childhood voraciously listening to it at every opportunity then is that not their culture as well?

    it may not be the same as someone who is black appreciating it, there may not be the same link to the lyrics etc but if it's the only culture they know then that's their culture in my opinion, so I think we may have to accept as time goes on that cultures are going to merge a lot more than historically.
    I think what is important is not preventing that, but ensuring that people from minority cultures aren't excluded from the success and opportunities associated with it.
    Culture is culture! everyone should be able to enjoy it and immerse themselves in it. Although, as a white man, i suppose it's quite easy for me to say that as i've never been in a position where i've had to protect my culture. I do agree with you though. I think that the BBC article is black people attacking the establishment rather than individuals.

  7. #32

    Re: Cultural Appropriation

    Quote Originally Posted by life on mars View Post
    Are folk saying that only black people should represent / comment on R & B or Soul as I would have though there has been many white folk who have been defined as a great soul or R&B voice or sound .

    I remember in he early years Zeppelin were referred too as a white man blues sound .

    Steve Marriott had a wonderful voice and guitar for the blues and R&B .
    I don't think anybody's saying that but I look forward to Craig David's podcast on country and western music which will be out soon

  8. #33

    Re: Cultural Appropriation

    Quote Originally Posted by delmbox View Post
    I don't think anybody's saying that but I look forward to Craig David's podcast on country and western music which will be out soon
    Bloody racist.

    Country music's origins are in a large part derived from music originating on the plantations. The banjo is an African instrument.

  9. #34

    Re: Cultural Appropriation

    Quote Originally Posted by delmbox View Post
    I don't think anybody's saying that but I look forward to Craig David's podcast on country and western music which will be out soon
    Not sure I've heard much about that.

    Can you fill me in?

  10. #35

    Re: Cultural Appropriation

    Quote Originally Posted by delmbox View Post
    I don't think anybody's saying that but I look forward to Craig David's podcast on country and western music which will be out soon
    not the point you're making , I know, but sometimes it's just as interesting to see something you're familiar with through someone else's eyes who is completely fresh to it as hearing someone who's an expert talk about it.

    this reaction video (that's been going around for years) of someone listening to RATM for the first time never fails to bring a smile to the face.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2eUxQ2_CQlw

    Craig David on country could be just as intoxicating.

  11. #36

    Re: Cultural Appropriation

    Quote Originally Posted by Tuerto View Post
    I don't think that your comparison with Korean pop music is the best, in my opinion. I guess that the angle of this article is UK based, and relating to black people in this country being overlooked for jobs where they maybe best suited. Not my words, that of the article, before anyone wants to have a go.

    Historically, South Koreans have not been discriminated against in the UK, or by Western Culture, not that i am aware of anyway. Although i'm sure Feedback will find something in his locker from the 11th century So, the comparison you makeis sort of coming from an historical level playing field, it's not like white culture has had a negative effect on South Korean people in terms of progress and opportunity. To me, there has to be some historical context.
    What an astonishingly ignorant post.

  12. #37

    Re: Cultural Appropriation

    The problem here is one of definition. It's not cultural appropriation (CA) for a white person to present a show, on a subject that perhaps a black person 'might' know more about. That's just a poor decision. Or rather, in this case, it's a commercial decision, right or wrong.

    I sort of get it when black people say you shouldn't have cornrows in you hair, because it's CA, but then I see plenty of black women with straightened hair, or even hair died blonde. Surely that's also CA?

    People have been borrowing, stealing, adopting and adapting things from other cultures since the Year Dot, and to get on your high horse about it now seems ridiculous to me. Everyone does it, everyone has always done it. In fact, if someone is adopting a look from your culture, it's a bit of a compliment, surely?

    But like I said, this is more about a job being given to a 'name' on the basis that they might help the viewing/listening figures. Okay, in the case of Cheryl Cole, I'm sure there are plenty of white people who know more about RnB than her, let alone black people. But how is this cultural appropriation? It's just not.

  13. #38

    Re: Cultural Appropriation

    Fuss over nothing. Some two bit podcast, not worth getting outraged over. It’s not like she’s been awarded a MOBO.

  14. #39

    Re: Cultural Appropriation

    Quote Originally Posted by blue lewj View Post
    Flip this around and say there was a disagreement that a black man or woman couldn't present a show on say classical music. Would that be wrong?

    I think positions like this should be filled by those most qualified and talented to do so, regardless of skin colour or background.
    Not sure Cheryl Cole meets the qualified and talented label but still...
    But this programme is about Cheryl and her influences, I think she’s the most qualified person for the job. Isn’t it about the fact that a white wiman is saying that she was heavily influenced by black music, so she’s paying homage to the genre?

  15. #40

    Re: Cultural Appropriation

    Quote Originally Posted by delmbox View Post
    I don't think anybody's saying that but I look forward to Craig David's podcast on country and western music which will be out soon
    If he was influenced by C&W I think that would be an interesting podcast, but I’m guessing he wasn’t, so it’s a shit example to use!

  16. #41

    Re: Cultural Appropriation

    Quote Originally Posted by JamesWales View Post
    Bloody racist.

    Country music's origins are in a large part derived from music originating on the plantations. The banjo is an African instrument.
    Majority of music lovers except and understand that music was derived from plantations , Africa, and early Greek philosophers like Pythagoras , and folk music this is a political bullshit and point scoring, if someone can give a view on music it doesn't matter what colour they are, it's just an opinion, life is not a about placing someone in a role because of skin colour .

    Music is inspiration a joy to all from the foothills of Asia through Africa , Greece and beyond and should be devoid of skin colour classification.

  17. #42

    Re: Cultural Appropriation

    Just tell me if I can dance at the Nile concert.

  18. #43

    Re: Cultural Appropriation

    Does this work both ways? Anne Boleyn wasn’t black!

  19. #44

    Re: Cultural Appropriation

    Clearly the view by many that the BBC is full of politically correct luvvy lefties is cobblers as I can't think of a dafter and more unsuitable presenter

    The Beeb have missed a trick here

    Lisa Stansfield perhaps but Cheryl Cole , dear me

  20. #45

    Re: Cultural Appropriation

    Quote Originally Posted by cityhammer View Post
    Does this work both ways? Anne Boleyn wasn’t black!
    Yes he was !

  21. #46

    Re: Cultural Appropriation

    Quote Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY View Post
    Clearly the view by many that the BBC is full of politically correct luvvy lefties is cobblers as I can't think of a dafter and more unsuitable presenter

    The Beeb have missed a trick here

    Lisa Stansfield perhaps but Cheryl Cole , dear me
    Like I said previously the podcast is about Cheryl and her influences surely, no one else could present it. What if it was a podcast by Paul Weller and how he has been influenced by black music, would that be unacceptable?

  22. #47

    Re: Cultural Appropriation

    Quote Originally Posted by cityhammer View Post
    Like I said previously the podcast is about Cheryl and her influences surely, no one else could present it. What if it was a podcast by Paul Weller and how he has been influenced by black music, would that be unacceptable?
    In my view why are they giving airspace to Cheryl Cole to present a programme about rnb ?

    Why not get a successful young black musician to present a show about his or her influences ?

    It seems pointless to give a person that is not taken seriously as a trailblazer in modern music to present a show on how rnb has influenced her

    Paul Weller , boring as he is , I could appreciate

  23. #48

    Re: Cultural Appropriation

    Quote Originally Posted by life on mars View Post
    Majority of music lovers except and understand that music was derived from plantations , Africa, and early Greek philosophers like Pythagoras , and folk music this is a political bullshit and point scoring, if someone can give a view on music it doesn't matter what colour they are, it's just an opinion, life is not a about placing someone in a role because of skin colour .

    Music is inspiration a joy to all from the foothills of Asia through Africa , Greece and beyond and should be devoid of skin colour classification.
    I agree! I was just lampooning the absurdity of the whole identity politics theory, of which cultural appropriation is a subset.

    There are times to be emotionally intelligent about sensitivities around cultural appropriation but generally speaking its used by a load of skin colour obsessives who would only drive us apart.

    All cultures are free to enjoy all cultural pursuits.

  24. #49

    Re: Cultural Appropriation

    I honestly struggle to get my head around this sort of thing. In the fifties and sixties, ports like Liverpool were the scene for the importing of records, often Rhythm and Blues records by black artists, brought back by sailors returning from America. In many cases, no one could be certain whether the artists involved were black or white - it didn’t matter, people just liked the music for what it was. Kids that were into this music were the foundation for the Mersey sound where, almost exclusively white bands would use cover versions of records the sailors brought back as filler for albums (or even singles in rare cases) and when someone like the Beatles were behind it, a huge audience were introduced to music and artists they were unfamiliar with.

    Dusty Springfield was in a trio which sang “family orientated” drivel most of the time, but as soon as she went solo, it became apparent that she had a superb R and B voice which earned her a great deal of money and fame. However, she gave an awful lot back in the way she promoted black music and artists who were both grateful to her for the exposure she was given them and respectful of her talent - I’d say that respect stemmed from the fact that she entirely “got” the music, almost entirely by black artists, she was publicising on her TV show.

    Dusty Springfield also spoke out against apartheid in the sixties, we’ll before it became “fashionable” to do so, yet the way some talk, she shouldn’t have been allowed to - it’s absurd!

    On the other hand, football is a part of life that could certainly do with the sort of reaction we’re seeing directed at Cheryl Cole. Although things seem to be improving, albeit way too slowly, in terms of black managers and coaches, the game is like a throwback to the seventies and eighties when the emerging African nations were uniformly coached and managed by white men because, bluntly, blacks were considered far too thick to understand the complexities of the game. Such thinking persists to some extent today’s day yet people get all worked up the colour of someone presenting a show dedicated to celebrating black music!

  25. #50

    Re: Cultural Appropriation

    Quote Originally Posted by cityhammer View Post
    If he was influenced by C&W I think that would be an interesting podcast, but I’m guessing he wasn’t, so it’s a shit example to use!
    Listen mate, I think she's fit too but I don't think she reads this board and even if she does I don't think she's going to be private messaging you to organize a thank you date so go for a walk or something

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