So it's National Insurance then

[Swiss Peter]

Very interesting. If true there is not a single commentator who has analysed the implications in such detail. I presume the upshot of today's plan will mean those in residential care will still be required to sell their homes to pay for their care.

If that is the case I cannot understand why so much money is required to pay for a system that is not very much different (except for some tinkering around the edges) to the present arrangements.

Looks like the media are starting to provide the analysis which Re-sign Carl Dale has helpfully set out.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-58442991

[bluesp]

Aye , it's torture

Good luck

Thanks Sludge

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

So Wales gets a share of this money

Considering South Wales in particular spends a great deal on social care then clearly it needs to get its nose in the trough

[Wash DC Blue]

The social care system in this country has had it

The elderly population keeps living longer

And the people who work in care are paid crap wages

It's a tsunami

When people regularly take out more of the system than put in that’s what happens.

Then those same people who have contributed the best part of Fukc all moan about it.

There absolutely should be a tier system for who has paid NI over the years.
Those that have paid most should absolutely get better and preferential treatment.

The houses that they WORKED to pay for should go to what they want.

You do believe in Darwin’s Survival of the Fittest and natural selection after all!!

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Thanks Sludge

I would contact Age Cymru and ask for guto or Simon, the information and advice workers , if anyone can advise you regarding financial matters they can

Age Cymru can send you booklets on caring for and funding or applying for funding for home care or residential care for your loved ones

The number is 0300 303 4498

Care home fact sheet is 10 W

Support at home fact sheet 46 W

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Thank you for the explanation, as always with these things the devil is in the detail eh? It frightens me to think what kind of care we would get for £35,000 per year when we pay nearly double that. I don't know if you've had any experience dealing with Cardiff Council to help with care funding but bloody hell they are slow, still waiting for an assessment of my mum's needs after 6 months!

You need to contact Age Cymru to hurry up this matter

Does your mother wish to stay at home ?

0300 303 4498

If you can get hold of Simon or guto they will help you

[bluesp]

You need to contact Age Cymru to hurry up this matter

Does your mother wish to stay at home ?

0300 303 4498

If you can get hold of Simon or guto they will help you

Thanks Sludge, she has been in a care home since May last year. I spoke with Age Cymru a few weeks ago, they were really helpful in helping make sense of the system after the council confused the hell out of me. We are looking at the deferred payment agreement so we don't have to sell her house. Do you think Age Cymru can kick the council up the arse then?

[Wash DC Blue]

You could also take the view that if you have plenty of savings why should the state fund your every need so that you can pass on your wealth to your kids.

Because they have paid into the system for their WORKING lives.
It’ should be owed to them.
Their frugality or smart investments should go to what the **** they want.

[Eric Cartman]

Because they have paid into the system for their WORKING lives.
It’ should be owed to them.
Their frugality or smart investments should go to what the **** they want.

You understand we live in a Ponzi scheme right? What we hand out to people who don't need it today can't be spent on a) people who do or b) advancing society so that everybody can live a better life in the future. There isn't 'a pot' as some people like to say. We have an ageing population and haven't spent one second planning for it, even if we had previously had a government willing to look beyond one term, people would have voted against a pragmatic approach anyway.

[Doucas]

Because they have paid into the system for their WORKING lives.
It’ should be owed to them.
Their frugality or smart investments should go to what the **** they want.

Young people are going to work all their lives for lower wages, worse housing, worse pensions and for longer so I really don't care if for once the older generation takes a hit.

[Feedback]

Because they have paid into the system for their WORKING lives.
It’ should be owed to them.
Their frugality or smart investments should go to what the **** they want.

say that with a straight face

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Because they have paid into the system for their WORKING lives.
It’ should be owed to them.
Their frugality or smart investments should go to what the **** they want.

I understand that but there are some very wealthy people out there who could afford nursing care in their final days yet still leave inheritance

Of course in an ideal world what you say is correct but there has to be some kind of cut off

If you are worth 5 million and nursing costs will be 300k till you die is it right in general terms that someone who may have had an industrial accident gets crap care whilst you get good care ?

OK I am taking a utopian look at things but it's late here 🙃

[Wash DC Blue]

I understand that but there are some very wealthy people out there who could afford nursing care in their final days yet still leave inheritance

Of course in an ideal world what you say is correct but there has to be some kind of cut off

If you are worth 5 million and nursing costs will be 300k till you die is it right in general terms that someone who may have had an industrial accident gets crap care whilst you get good care ?

OK I am taking a utopian look at things but it's late here 🙃

I’m looking at it through Working Class lens here.
For instance my Dad and my Late Mother’s resentment of what would become of what they worked for if they had to go into care.

You are talking shift workers here, the pair of them.
Their MO was to give my Brother and I a better deal than they had.

Of Course they surpassed that massively.
My Mother, A Pill Girl teaching me how to read at a more advanced level than school did back then.

My Dad, an Alway boy taught me and tested me on my Capital Cities.

Their love and work was for each other and their kids.
They paid their dues and worked hard!!

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

I’m looking at it through Working Class lens here.
For instance my Dad and my Late Mother’s resentment of what would become of what they worked for if they had to go into care.

You are talking shift workers here, the pair of them.
Their MO was to give my Brother and I a better deal than they had.

Of Course they surpassed that massively.
My Mother, A Pill Girl teaching me how to read at a more advanced level than school did back then.

My Dad, an Alway boy taught me and tested me on my Capital Cities.

Their love and work was for each other and their kids.
They paid their dues and worked hard!!

I am not doubting they did mate

And it's not their level of income I am meaning to debate

We are talking or I am talking very wealthy people

Anyway I am off to bed , it's bloody hot over in taffyland tonight

[Wash DC Blue]

There isn't a pot. We are 2 Trillion in debt, if anything, the longer you have been alive, the longer you have been bankrupting the country.

Austerity or euthanasia.
Heck of a choice.

Those people who have worked all their lives don’t matter.
They can no longer be part of the production line regardless of what they have put in.

Fcuk off you Bell!

[Wash DC Blue]

Think how much they've paid in, and how quickly that would be used up in pension and care costs. they will never have paid "enough" into the pot, and its unwise to use that as an argument when discussing the issue.

And here is where the conversation gets tasty isn’t it.
An ever increasing amount of people taking out more than they have put in, in addition to those that have never put in at all.

[the other bob wilson]

I'd described my politics as, first and foremost, anti Conservative these days, but, although I think the Government are only doing what they did yesterday because they have to (like many who came before him, Johnson would kick this can further down the road in typical fashion if he could), I can't get too worked up in these circumstances about what are, effectively, tax rises. Similarly, although it's somehow typical that it happens less than five months before I reach state pension age (having had it put back to sixty six), I can understand the decision to suspend the triple lock on pensions for a year (will it ever return I wonder?).

The thing is though, yesterday's announcement was similar to a budget in some ways as, on the day, the discussion is all about what the Government wants it to be about, it usually takes a few hours for the downsides of the Chancellor's announcements to come to light. That's what's happened today with those two bastions of Corbynite socialism, the Daily Telegraph and Times, running stories about how the tax burden in the UK will become the highest it's been for seventy years (according to the Times), while the Telegraph says it'll be the highest it's been since the Second World War - all of this from a party that sells itself as being much more anti tax than Labour.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-the-papers-58483020

For decades, Tories wishing to score points at Labour's expense have branded them the "tax and spend" party, but has there ever been a Government that deserves that description more than this one? It'll be very interesting to see if the forty two per cent or so who, according to the polls, have stuck with Johnson and his inept Cabinet through thin and thin still do so after this - the front page of the Telegraph also carries an opinion piece saying that Johnson sounded "the death knell for Conservatism" yesterday.

[IanD]

Assuming that this idea is a re-invented version of changes proposed in 2015 (which it seems to be), the idea that no-one will pay more than £85,000 is a myth, unfortunately - but it's a great headline!

I'm an IFA specialising in retirement / later life planning, and the proposal seems to be along the lines of ...

Let's say someone's paying £60,000pa (which is about the rate for a good quality care home).

Firstly, £12-£14,000 of this £60,000 will be treated as 'hotel costs' (food and accommodation) so immediately only around £47,000 will be counted towards the 'cap'.

Secondly, the system needs to be set up to avoid it being abused ... if it's all fully paid for when someone hits the 'cap', then we there would be a clamour to book mum and dad the flashest, nicest - and most expensive care home possible. So the amount that counts toward the 'cap' will be a 'reasonable' one. This looks like it's based on what the local authority pay for their care homes; somewhere in the region of £35,000pa.

So, forget that someone's paying £60,000 - Boris reckons £35,000 is what's 'reasonable' to pay (although I've not met any self-funder able to get a half decent care home for anywhere near this), and we need to deduct £13,000 for hotel costs. Therefore of the £60,000 paid, only around £22,000 will only count to this £85,000 'cap'.

To hit the £85,000 'cap' on care, someone paying £60,000pa would need to have actually paid around four years (longer than the average spell in a care home incidentally) - so around £240,000.

After this point, Bozza will step in and pay what they feel is a reasonable element towards the 'care' cost (ie £22,000 per year of the £60,000).

I've got too much time on my hands ... bring back the football!!!

And, as I understand it, there is no backdating of care costs. So, my dad already in care for 18 months, won't have the care-not-food-and-accomodation element count towards the £85,000 until 2023. In England, government will pay care costs when total asset value is less than £20k. Currently that figure is £23,250 so a hidden reduction (£50k in Wales, I think). An as yet undisclosed care subsidy will apply in England between £20,001 and £100,000 of asset value. So, government could pay just 5% of care costs. No-one knows, even though Parliament is due to vote on it today. The headline figure of £85k maximum lifetime care payment by an individual is just spin. May as well paint it as a slogan on the side of a bus.
Anyone living in UK that thinks we have a NationalHS is also being misled. We have a fragmented, confusing, inefficient and, at times, dysfunctional and expensive system.....that isn't integrated with social care. My dad's advice of "don't get old" stands true. Best pass on any assets to the offspring whilst you can. You can't take it with you as care providers will have taken it first.

[IanD]

Thanks Sludge, she has been in a care home since May last year. I spoke with Age Cymru a few weeks ago, they were really helpful in helping make sense of the system after the council confused the hell out of me. We are looking at the deferred payment agreement so we don't have to sell her house. Do you think Age Cymru can kick the council up the arse then?

Have you got Power of Attorney set up? A shed load of paperwork but very, very useful when it comes to any financial dealings such as deferred payment. Also, depending on the value of the house, care costs can outstrip asset value in a matter of years.4 years on an average house. I looked into deffered payment for my dad. £350 in legal fees to set up. Plus an annual charge equivelant to 1.5% for ongoing fees/interest payable to the council on sale. This is in England (Dudley) last checked 18 months ago. Costs will vary across councils. Important that any siblings understand that the council will have a financial interest in the house (it is a type of equity release) and that all understand the financial arrangements your mum is setting up. I found Cardiff Council most helpful. Bad news is that you have to be on the ball to be effective in the process with understanding the system the main challenge. Age Cymru are very good at pointing in the right direction.
Good luck.

[bluesp]

Have you got Power of Attorney set up? A shed load of paperwork but very, very useful when it comes to any financial dealings such as deferred payment. Also, depending on the value of the house, care costs can outstrip asset value in a matter of years.4 years on an average house. I looked into deffered payment for my dad. £350 in legal fees to set up. Plus an annual charge equivelant to 1.5% for ongoing fees/interest payable to the council on sale. This is in England (Dudley) last checked 18 months ago. Costs will vary across councils. Important that any siblings understand that the council will have a financial interest in the house (it is a type of equity release) and that all understand the financial arrangements your mum is setting up. I found Cardiff Council most helpful. Bad news is that you have to be on the ball to be effective in the process with understanding the system the main challenge. Age Cymru are very good at pointing in the right direction.
Good luck.

Yes fortunately we have POA in place, before my mum's dementia set in.
With Cardiff there's a £330 set up charge, then no interest providing you pay back with 56 days of the end of the contract. The house is in a holiday area so we are renting it out to help with her funding, trying hard to avoid selling it as it's an investment for myself and brothers in the long run as well as generating income now.
Thank you

[Vindec]

Have you got Power of Attorney set up? A shed load of paperwork but very, very useful when it comes to any financial dealings such as deferred payment. Also, depending on the value of the house, care costs can outstrip asset value in a matter of years.4 years on an average house. I looked into deffered payment for my dad. £350 in legal fees to set up. Plus an annual charge equivelant to 1.5% for ongoing fees/interest payable to the council on sale. This is in England (Dudley) last checked 18 months ago. Costs will vary across councils. Important that any siblings understand that the council will have a financial interest in the house (it is a type of equity release) and that all understand the financial arrangements your mum is setting up. I found Cardiff Council most helpful. Bad news is that you have to be on the ball to be effective in the process with understanding the system the main challenge. Age Cymru are very good at pointing in the right direction.
Good luck.

If your mother and father are still alive but your mother is in a care home isn't the assumption made that only your mother's share of the house (50% assuming tenants in common) is taken into consideration? Furthermore would your father be required to sell the house he lives if your mother dies before him?

Sorry for the daft question but I am trying to get to grips with my understanding of the past and present situation because things must have changed since I was involved in this issue for my parents.

[Re-sign Carl Dale]

If your mother and father are still alive but your mother is in a care home isn't the assumption made that only your mother's share of the house (50% assuming tenants in common) is taken into consideration? Furthermore would your father be required to sell the house he lives if your mother dies before him?

Sorry for the daft question but I am trying to get to grips with my understanding of the past and present situation because things must have changed since I was involved in this issue for my parents.

If both parents are alive, the value of the home is completely ignored providing that one owner (or anyone relative over the age of 60 is living there as their main home) - it doesn't matter if t's owned as tenants in common or jointly tenancy.

Top advice from Ian about Lasting Power of Attorney - absolutely essential for everyone of any age. The example I give clients is Kate Garraway who had to rely on financial support from friends and family when her husband was suffering from Covid and everything was frozen as he hadn't set up Power of Attorney.

[Rjk]

something always doesn't seem to add up with care in this country. the costs are always eye watering. thousands per week. that can wipe through a value of a house in a couple of years.
yet at the same time there is no money to pay the carers adequately, they are hugely stressed and leaving the industry in droves.

where does it all go?

I don't know how to address it but the current system is completely broken.
someone who is really rich, can afford to pay for their care in old age from pensions and investments or rental income that they don't need to work for, so their house isn't touched.
whereas many other people will end up losing everything they e ever saved to pay for their last few years.

[Wash DC Blue]

something always doesn't seem to add up with care in this country. the costs are always eye watering. thousands per week. that can wipe through a value of a house in a couple of years.
yet at the same time there is no money to pay the carers adequately, they are hugely stressed and leaving the industry in droves.

where does it all go?

I don't know how to address it but the current system is completely broken.
someone who is really rich, can afford to pay for their care in old age from pensions and investments or rental income that they don't need to work for, so their house isn't touched.
whereas many other people will end up losing everything they e ever saved to pay for their last few years.

I think there are plenty of unscrupulous business owners making a fortune out of it.
Same goes for the multi property landlords.

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Thanks Sludge, she has been in a care home since May last year. I spoke with Age Cymru a few weeks ago, they were really helpful in helping make sense of the system after the council confused the hell out of me. We are looking at the deferred payment agreement so we don't have to sell her house. Do you think Age Cymru can kick the council up the arse then?

If anyone can do it they can

Is anyone living in the house at the moment as their only residence ?