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Thread: UPDATED: David Henderson - Found guilty.

  1. #51

    Re: David Henderson goes on trial over charges linked to plane crash which killed Emiliano Sala

    Quote Originally Posted by Des Parrot View Post
    Because it will influence the outcome of the dispute between City & Nantes. Who asked McKay, who was he working on behalf of? Remember City offered him a commercial flight which he or someone on his behalf declined. For the transfer fee I believe it’s the crux of the whole case.
    Absolutely , surely it comes down to duty of care of an employee , question is which employer , would insurance companies look at those due responsibilities , and who is liable for that responsibility and decision making that resulted in the awful incident ?

  2. #52

    Re: David Henderson goes on trial over charges linked to plane crash which killed Emiliano Sala

    Quote Originally Posted by Vindec View Post
    Don't forget the fact the pilot was unlicensed to fly a plane at night. CCFC were "in the process" of signing Sala, offered Sala a scheduled flight until a third party intervened and the agent concerned was acting on behalf of Nantes. I can't see how the club could be liable for anything.
    No doubt the legal case will be less of an open and shut case than is imagined on here. None of us knows the contractual status in reality.

  3. #53

    Re: David Henderson goes on trial over charges linked to plane crash which killed Emiliano Sala

    Quote Originally Posted by nugent View Post
    And Henderson is involved with the day to day operations of the aircraft.
    Have you read the BBC story?
    The day after the crash he's texted engineer saying " ibbos killed himself and a vip pax, don't say a word"
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-...&at_medium=RSS

    On the night the plane went missing, Mr Goudie said Mr Henderson sent a text message to an aircraft engineer saying "don't say a word", and asked others to keep quiet because "questions may be asked about his flying".


    Another text to a different recipient said: "Ibbo has crashed the Malibu and killed himself and VIP pax! Bloody disaster. There will be an enquiry [sic]."

    Mr Goudie said: "It's clear on the evidence that [Mr Henderson] knew Mr Ibbotson well, frequently discussed his qualifications with him and knew he was deficient."

  4. #54

    Re: David Henderson goes on trial over charges linked to plane crash which killed Emiliano Sala

    Quote Originally Posted by cityhammer View Post
    This is the £15m question. If McKay was acting for Cardiff we pay, if he was acting for Nantes, we don't. If he was acting for Sala, god knows how it gets resolved!
    I can't settle on the £15m question being simply - who was McKay/(in turn - Henderson) acting on behalf of.

    The agent's duties would be deemed to have had a beginning and end - in Nantes opinion they clearly believe the deal had been completed during the weekend while he is pictured with Choo signing forms and doing the ayatollah at the CCS. They would of course therefore maintain these flights between Sala and McKay were organised acting on behalf of Sala and Sala only. (I can only make out that it McKay's agency to book the flight was certainly not on Cardiff City's behalf in any case).

    On negligence - it's quite clear Dave Henderson is absolutely done for, that's about all I can fathom clearly from the ongoing case.

    On paying the £15m - it has already been considered and ruled upon by Fifa's Players Status Committee that the transfer had completed - we of course countered that it hadn't been complete as they hadn't completed his registration with the PL - to which of course comes the counter - that's up to you to do once he is your player - Cardiff City's own look out to get completed and not part of the completion of a transfer - you could probably own a player but not register them indefinitely.

    As for redress to CCFC from the court/Insurance monies - I've seen people say nah Insurance would have been voided by the fact the plane wasn't air worthy and the pilot wasn't adequately qualified - it's not clear what insurance they are addressing there! I would have thought the club would have had insurance of Sala himself established during that weekend and I would be majorly surprised if it didn't cover such sort of a incident. Although of course a definitive answer regards that can only be made with reference to the full detail of the insurance policies and its clauses.

  5. #55

    Re: David Henderson goes on trial over charges linked to plane crash which killed Emiliano Sala

    Quote Originally Posted by gabbsthenewt View Post
    I can't settle on the £15m question being simply - who was McKay/(in turn - Henderson) acting on behalf of.

    The agent's duties would be deemed to have had a beginning and end - in Nantes opinion they clearly believe the deal had been completed during the weekend while he is pictured with Choo signing forms and doing the ayatollah at the CCS. They would of course therefore maintain these flights between Sala and McKay were organised acting on behalf of Sala and Sala only. (I can only make out that it McKay's agency to book the flight was certainly not on Cardiff City's behalf in any case).

    On negligence - it's quite clear Dave Henderson is absolutely done for, that's about all I can fathom clearly from the ongoing case.

    On paying the £15m - it has already been considered and ruled upon by Fifa's Players Status Committee that the transfer had completed - we of course countered that it hadn't been complete as they hadn't completed his registration with the PL - to which of course comes the counter - that's up to you to do once he is your player - Cardiff City's own look out to get completed and not part of the completion of a transfer - you could probably own a player but not register them indefinitely.

    As for redress to CCFC from the court/Insurance monies - I've seen people say nah Insurance would have been voided by the fact the plane wasn't air worthy and the pilot wasn't adequately qualified - it's not clear what insurance they are addressing there! I would have thought the club would have had insurance of Sala himself established during that weekend and I would be majorly surprised if it didn't cover such sort of a incident. Although of course a definitive answer regards that can only be made with reference to the full detail of the insurance policies and its clauses.
    A much more reasoned outlook. I still think we will end up paying.

  6. #56

    Re: David Henderson goes on trial over charges linked to plane crash which killed Emiliano Sala

    Quote Originally Posted by nugent View Post
    Why are people worrying about who sorted the flight.
    Again, just like sorting a taxi for your mate , or a private mini bus, you'll expect the company to be legit , you don't ask to see anyone licence.
    So if this happened 2 years into a contract would we be going back to Nantes for our money back?

  7. #57

    Re: David Henderson goes on trial over charges linked to plane crash which killed Emiliano Sala

    Quote Originally Posted by gabbsthenewt View Post
    I can't settle on the £15m question being simply - who was McKay/(in turn - Henderson) acting on behalf of.

    The agent's duties would be deemed to have had a beginning and end - in Nantes opinion they clearly believe the deal had been completed during the weekend while he is pictured with Choo signing forms and doing the ayatollah at the CCS. They would of course therefore maintain these flights between Sala and McKay were organised acting on behalf of Sala and Sala only. (I can only make out that it McKay's agency to book the flight was certainly not on Cardiff City's behalf in any case).

    On negligence - it's quite clear Dave Henderson is absolutely done for, that's about all I can fathom clearly from the ongoing case.

    On paying the £15m - it has already been considered and ruled upon by Fifa's Players Status Committee that the transfer had completed - we of course countered that it hadn't been complete as they hadn't completed his registration with the PL - to which of course comes the counter - that's up to you to do once he is your player - Cardiff City's own look out to get completed and not part of the completion of a transfer - you could probably own a player but not register them indefinitely.

    As for redress to CCFC from the court/Insurance monies - I've seen people say nah Insurance would have been voided by the fact the plane wasn't air worthy and the pilot wasn't adequately qualified - it's not clear what insurance they are addressing there! I would have thought the club would have had insurance of Sala himself established during that weekend and I would be majorly surprised if it didn't cover such sort of a incident. Although of course a definitive answer regards that can only be made with reference to the full detail of the insurance policies and its clauses.
    Actually funnily enough I started by saying "I can't settle on the £15m question being who was McKay acting on behalf of" - reading it indeed that is the key question - but obviously it's not simple - if you were to read the situation per how it's gone so far through the sporting courts - currently rulings to date have concluded that the move had completed and the flight wasn't made on behalf of anyone but Sala himself - his travelling back to Nantes was his own choice and journey.

  8. #58

    Re: David Henderson goes on trial over charges linked to plane crash which killed Emiliano Sala

    Quote Originally Posted by WJ99mobile View Post
    A much more reasoned outlook. I still think we will end up paying.
    Yes, I agree, it’s so hard to think otherwise after that picture and announcement from the club three days before Sala died.

  9. #59

    Re: David Henderson goes on trial over charges linked to plane crash which killed Emiliano Sala

    Quote Originally Posted by Taunton Blue Genie View Post
    Do professional sportsmen and sportswomen have clauses in their clubs' insurance contracts where they have cover only it travelling on approved airlines?
    Probably not quite that, but excluding travel in single engine planes, or at least reducing the potential pay out, is common.

  10. #60

    Re: David Henderson goes on trial over charges linked to plane crash which killed Emiliano Sala

    Quote Originally Posted by Undercoverinwurzelland View Post
    Probably not quite that, but excluding travel in single engine planes, or at least reducing the potential pay out, is common.
    Actually, scrub that. I've just checked and it looks like there probably wouldn't have been that kind of exclusion. Personal accident and travel policies for businesses and individuals usually do, but it appears not when professional sports people are involved.
    There is the potential issue of whether he'd been added to the policy between "signing" and the accident though.

  11. #61

    Re: David Henderson goes on trial over charges linked to plane crash which killed Emiliano Sala

    Quote Originally Posted by Undercoverinwurzelland View Post
    Actually, scrub that. I've just checked and it looks like there probably wouldn't have been that kind of exclusion. Personal accident and travel policies for businesses and individuals usually do, but it appears not when professional sports people are involved.
    There is the potential issue of whether he'd been added to the policy between "signing" and the accident though.
    Indeed. That's a second contractual issue in play. The taxi analogy earlier in this thread is an oversimplified and inaccurate analogy.

  12. #62

    Re: David Henderson goes on trial over charges linked to plane crash which killed Emiliano Sala

    Quote Originally Posted by Undercoverinwurzelland View Post
    Actually, scrub that. I've just checked and it looks like there probably wouldn't have been that kind of exclusion. Personal accident and travel policies for businesses and individuals usually do, but it appears not when professional sports people are involved.
    There is the potential issue of whether he'd been added to the policy between "signing" and the accident though.
    I thought the prosecution said we were in the process of signing him.

  13. #63

    Re: David Henderson goes on trial over charges linked to plane crash which killed Emiliano Sala

    Quote Originally Posted by Undercoverinwurzelland View Post
    Actually, scrub that. I've just checked and it looks like there probably wouldn't have been that kind of exclusion. Personal accident and travel policies for businesses and individuals usually do, but it appears not when professional sports people are involved.
    There is the potential issue of whether he'd been added to the policy between "signing" and the accident though.

    Stefan Schwarz's contract at Sunderland forbade him from going into space.

  14. #64

    Re: David Henderson goes on trial over charges linked to plane crash which killed Emiliano Sala

    Quote Originally Posted by alan_corneli View Post
    I thought the prosecution said we were in the process of signing him.
    They can say it all they want - they aren't the deciding party with regard that matter - simply the UK Civil Aviation Authority's acting prosecutors

  15. #65

    Re: David Henderson goes on trial over charges linked to plane crash which killed Emiliano Sala

    Quote Originally Posted by gabbsthenewt View Post
    They can say it all they want - they aren't the deciding party with regard that matter - simply the UK Civil Aviation Authority's acting prosecutors
    Of course there are a lot of unknowns but another issue not previously mentioned is the fact Sala had not completed his registration with the Football League as there were allegedly contractual issues requiring amendment. While the club's actions in defending their actions seemed unseemly at the time I can well understand why they did so.

  16. #66

    Re: David Henderson goes on trial over charges linked to plane crash which killed Emiliano Sala

    Quote Originally Posted by Vindec View Post
    Of course there are a lot of unknowns but another issue not previously mentioned is the fact Sala had not completed his registration with the Football League as there were allegedly contractual issues requiring amendment. While the club's actions in defending their actions seemed unseemly at the time I can well understand why they did so.
    It's previously mentioned.

    Quote Originally Posted by gabbsthenewt View Post
    .

    On paying the £15m - it has already been considered and ruled upon by Fifa's Players Status Committee that the transfer had completed - we of course countered that it hadn't been complete as they hadn't completed his registration with the PL - to which of course comes the counter - that's up to you to do once he is your player - Cardiff City's own look out to get completed and not part of the completion of a transfer - you could probably own a player but not register them indefinitely.

  17. #67
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    Re: David Henderson goes on trial over charges linked to plane crash which killed Emiliano Sala

    Quote Originally Posted by WJ99mobile View Post
    So if this happened 2 years into a contract would we be going back to Nantes for our money back?
    Of course not.

    2 things will happen here .

    1. We'll end up paying Nantes.

    2. We'll have to reclaim that money in a separate claim against the airline.
    Who I'll guarantee won't have the money and will go bust

  18. #68
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    Re: David Henderson goes on trial over charges linked to plane crash which killed Emiliano Sala

    Quote Originally Posted by gabbsthenewt View Post

    On paying the £15m - it has already been considered and ruled upon by Fifa's Players Status Committee that the transfer had completed - we of course countered that it hadn't been complete as they hadn't completed his registration with the PL - to which of course comes the counter - that's up to you to do once he is your player - Cardiff City's own look out to get completed and not part of the completion of a transfer - you could probably own a player but not register them indefinitely.
    I'm sure you are right that the non-registration of Sala with the Premier League is irrelevant to whether the Nantes to Cardiff transfer had been completed. I could never understand why Mehmet Dalman even raised that as an issue in the aftermath of the crash.

    However, I am sure there are other contractual discrepancies that meant the contract shown in front of Sala, Choo and the rest in the press photos had to be amended and re-signed to be valid. The fee and the instalments were agreed but if I remember rightly other issues that included personal terms and agent fees were incomplete or invalid. In normal circumstances that would have been done in the next 48 hours with no photographers in sight, and the world would have been none the wiser.

  19. #69

    Re: David Henderson goes on trial over charges linked to plane crash which killed Emiliano Sala

    If City had insurance in place before the flight, then whether the insurance co. pays out or counter claims another insured party, would have no financial impact upon City either way. A player valued at £15 million by both City and Nantes would unlikely to have been uninsured for any point in time, wherever he was. He was either a Nantes player under their insurance, or a City player under theirs. Of course, this assumes we had insurance in effect from the time it's deemed he was our player.

  20. #70

    Re: David Henderson goes on trial over charges linked to plane crash which killed Emiliano Sala

    Quote Originally Posted by jon1959 View Post
    I'm sure you are right that the non-registration of Sala with the Premier League is irrelevant to whether the Nantes to Cardiff transfer had been completed. I could never understand why Mehmet Dalman even raised that as an issue in the aftermath of the crash.

    However, I am sure there are other contractual discrepancies that meant the contract shown in front of Sala, Choo and the rest in the press photos had to be amended and re-signed to be valid. The fee and the instalments were agreed but if I remember rightly other issues that included personal terms and agent fees were incomplete or invalid. In normal circumstances that would have been done in the next 48 hours with no photographers in sight, and the world would have been none the wiser.
    This is all granted but I'm yet to see any of that evidenced...there is still time and it's not to me but to court they may have already given the details...time will tell. There have been details coming out and I may not have seen all of them, but we certainly know they attempted a challenge on the basis of the non registration, and they failed to pay -(whether that was at the request of an insurer one can only speculate).

    It's the Sala family my thoughts come to everytime I give it thought. Very glad Romina lived through a suicide attempt, that family has been through so much already.

  21. #71

    Re: David Henderson goes on trial over charges linked to plane crash which killed Emiliano Sala

    It could be that Cardiff are hoping that in some way the trial points the finger at Nantes for requesting the flight - afterall they were a client of McKay who actually arranged the flight.
    If Nantes are responsible in some way, then the negligence could be passed down the line to them, and therefore they could be held somewhat responsible?

  22. #72

    Re: David Henderson goes on trial over charges linked to plane crash which killed Emiliano Sala

    Quote Originally Posted by Toadstool View Post
    It could be that Cardiff are hoping that in some way the trial points the finger at Nantes for requesting the flight - afterall they were a client of McKay who actually arranged the flight.
    If Nantes are responsible in some way, then the negligence could be passed down the line to them, and therefore they could be held somewhat responsible?
    Nantes involvement isn’t anything to do with negligence as I see it, the taxi scenario is relevant at that point, but the bigger picture is it MacKay was acting as Nantes agent and made arrangements to deliver him to us safely, then I think at that point you have to consider were Nantes responsible for his safe delivery, in the same way as if I buy something on eBay I am the contract is complete. If it gets lost in transit due to the courier employed by the seller, I sure as hell ain’t paying for it.

  23. #73

    Re: David Henderson goes on trial over charges linked to plane crash which killed Emiliano Sala

    Quote Originally Posted by lardy View Post
    Stefan Schwarz's contract at Sunderland forbade him from going into space.
    Same with City's players. Hence the lack of movement on the pitch.

  24. #74

    Re: David Henderson goes on trial over charges linked to plane crash which killed Emiliano Sala

    Quote Originally Posted by nugent View Post
    It really is that simple.
    You jump in a taxi, you don't ask to see the drivers licence do you?
    You entrust the taxi company to provide you with a competent driver.

    Henderson looks to be the owner of the plane and organised the flight.
    He'll go down
    This isn't a taxi tho. It's not that simple.

  25. #75

    Re: David Henderson goes on trial over charges linked to plane crash which killed Emiliano Sala

    Quote Originally Posted by Taunton Blue Genie View Post
    Indeed. That's a second contractual issue in play. The taxi analogy earlier in this thread is an oversimplified and inaccurate analogy.
    It sure is, I’d hope the guy flying the jet across the Atlantic I’m on might have a bit more knowledge and capability than my taxi driver from the city centre home…..

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