Reply With QuoteDangerous position you are adopting hereOriginally Posted by Feedback
As always those who like to think they are objective in their analysis are anything but.
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Those sound like the words of somebody who has never been hard up. This thread started with the rise being referred to as a 'realignment' of the economy in favour of the low paid, it is within that context that I am saying it wont make a difference. It also needs to be viewed within the context of the overall economic climate, if the poorest working families are better off next year then it will be by pennies once everything is totted up and certainly not '£20 better off'.
Dangerous position you are adopting here
As always those who like to think they are objective in their analysis are anything but.
Completely ignored my asking you to show me where Johnson and the rest were dissenting against Conservative budgets in the 2010s I see. I said I’d concede you had a point if you did - you didn’t.
An increase in a minimum wage is welcome. It's not enough but better than nothing.
However, it is only one small positive in a system which the Tories always favour the already wealthy. They pass on the tax and NI burden to those who earn the least.
The stripping of the UTC uplift should have been staggered until after the winter and while the new minimum wage is being implemented. Also, tax on fuel for the next 4 or 5 months should be scrapped to help people with their heating bills, which are shooting up due to the mismanagement by the Tories.
The NI increase and UTC reduction will have an immediate dramatic negative impact on families.
A reminder to the Tories on here who say money doesn't grow on trees and that things need to be paid for, which of course is true but.....
37bn on a track and trace system (to a Tory connected org) whereas other countries spent a fraction of that on more effective systems. Billions given to Tory donors / family members for PPE contracts (org that never provided Ppe before and some were only a few months old)... While good, solid providers of PPE had warehouses of PPE they ended up sending abroad because they couldn't get on the Tory list...(tories bypassing the proper procurement process).. my brother worked in a ppe warehouse and distribution centre through the pandemic.... Tory connected ppe providers .. overpriced and faulty products that had to be returned and never reimbursed.
Finally... Wasting billions on trident, hs2 and the HoL.. none of which most Welsh people support.
So let's not pretend the Tories are at all interested in saving the country money or making people wealthier, unless they are connected to the Tories.
Lol 😆
Oh christ don't mention that
Fiscally prudent Tories wasting money on HS2 ......lots of Tories have contracts to build that.....nuclear weapons .......that would have stopped the Manchester arena bomber !.......and the PPE fiasco
Never mind that , let's talk about the minimum wage shall we chaps , what what
if that is what you meant then it didn't come across like that at all.
of course they won't be better off. Inflation is going to eat into it, and once the energy cartels are unshackled from the price cap, we'll see all of it gone.
people don't want gimmicks and benefits, they want well paid jobs. Until we have that then we won't have economic realignment.
why would I argue against Johnson et al dissenting? did they dissent, I have no idea. I'll take your word for it that they did/did not (delete as appropriate). I don't really care as it was 6 years ago and the UK was a very different place, and it really does not make any difference to what is going on today. Unless of course you're looking to score inane political points for no other reason than it makes you feel good. Bizarre behaviour
I'll introduce you to them sludge. A £1000 to the charity of your choice if I'm shown to be wrong. £1000 to my charity of choice if I'm right.
Just so you know, my charity is the Rescue Hotel who are building a new dogs home on Penarth Road. I'll let them know you'll be making the donation before the weekend. please have courage in your convictions as I'm sure you'll agree the cause is worthy
I think this is the kind of post where I would make a plea for balance, defend the government and thus be accused of lacking balance myself.
The problem here is that this is a bit of a polemic against the government that comes to a conclusion ‘The govt is bad’ and somewhat cherry picks some points to back it up. It’s a bit like looking at a mid-table football teams results and only citing the defeats.
Firstly, you are right, a rise in minimum wage is welcome. I would contest your point that ‘the tories only benefit the wealthy’ (as I would anyone who said Labour only benefit the poor). That’s a bit of a trope really. The changes to tax thresholds, the rise in minimum wages and the top rate of tax (40% to 45%) all benefit the lower paid more, and should be commended. If they can be accused of anything it’s of creating a ‘work first’ approach which can leave some feeling left behind. However, I think worklessness is a curse that blights many communities and we should try and end that cycle of hopelessness.
Secondly, it’s not £37bn. That is false, and who says it’s “wasted” I got a call from them. I stayed home as a result – maybe I saved some peoples lives as a result? Expensive? Yes. Wasted? I dunno.
NHS Test and Trace cost £13.5 billion in its first year - Full Fact
On PPE – procurement rules were thrown out the window because they normally operate on a 2-3 week delivery schedule. We needed tonnes of PPE yesterday (the govt failed to plan for this, that’s true, although which govt did?). Of the hundreds of thousands of orders placed some, inevitably, will go to Tory doners (there are hundreds of thousands of them, disproportionately in business), some inevitably will fall foul of quality control. This will happen in normal times and will only increase when procurement rules are largely ignored. It’s not right, but prioritising lives mattered more at that juncture. No one would have said “Sorry, we need to undergo the 21 day procurement cool off period and 21 day competitive tender process for these life saving masks and ventilators. The cost would have been more deaths. That said, anyone who only gave a contract to someone because of their political party should absolutely have the book thrown at them. But it's via a proper trial, not via social media
I agree that Universal Credit could have been tapered off. Where I disagree is people referring to it as a cut. The raise was temporary in light of Covid, alongside grants to businesses, furlough etc. We understand those are ending and so too is the U/C rise. In future, all you will be advocating is no govt giving a temporary uplift to benefits, as they will be criticised for then taking it away.
Trident is not a waste of money! The nuclear deterrent has guaranteed no nuclear war for 70 years. Note, the only time they have been used is the tiny portion of history when nuclear weapons existed but only one side had them. Sharing the cost is a good idea, but trident – 100% support it. It’s a critical insurance policy
House of Lords (assume that’s what you mean by HoL) – I’d scrap it tomorrow in its current format but second chambers are important and cost money so can’t see how an elected chamber would save money. In practice, it would probably cost more, but democratically it’s a no brainer really.
HS2 – I would never have gone ahead with it. I support the investment in railways but think that sum would be better spent creating better transport networks around cities and between provincial cities – the route between Manchester and Cardiff for example is very poor.
agree with all of that except the bit about Trident, HS2 and HoL. The UK government borrows the money to pay for all that, and the cost to Wales is less than £300m per annum. We get far more from Westminster per annum that £300m.
If anyone thinks Sunak is a right winger they need to understand that this government has collected more in taxes as a proportion of national income than any other before. This is after allowing for Covid19 spending. Likewise, the money spent on providing public services is at a level never previously seen before.
Yet some say the Tories are right wing. By and large they are but we do have a chancellor who is far more centrist in his approach.
I think Bob's point is that the conservatives political cover during the 2010's was almost entirely 'cleaning up the mess left by labour' and this was very very rarely challenged in the media. Now Boris is permitted by the same media to absolve himself and his government of all responsibility for his parties period in government, this doesn't happen by accident. He even nearly got away with running in 2019 on a slogan of 'Britain Deserves Better' ffs
How much should MW be?
I think there is an authoritarian vs 'libertarian' crisis brewing within the conservative party. Taxation forms a part of that but many other policy choices by the leadership will feed into it.
Depends where you live.
So suggest one for in London and out of London then.
is that what Bob meant? Then why didn't he say it?I think Bob's point is that the conservatives political cover during the 2010's was almost entirely 'cleaning up the mess left by labour' and this was very very rarely challenged in the media. Now Boris is permitted by the same media to absolve himself and his government of all responsibility for his parties period in government, this doesn't happen by accident. He even nearly got away with running in 2019 on a slogan of 'Britain Deserves Better' ffs
if you think that Boris and the Tories didn't fully capitalise on the "Britain Deserves Better" slogan, then you need to go and have a look a the whitewash that general election was.
It clearly escapes many people, but the UK is not Wales. Whilst the majority in Wales may see things differently vis a vis the Tories, that does not correlate to how the rest of the UK views that political party. If they did, the Tories would not have the majority in parliament that they currently do.
Despite Brexit, despite austerity, despite the changes to the benefits system, the Tories are as strong as ever. There is a reason for that and its because the UK, as a whole, is doing ok. People only really call for change when things go wrong, which is what happened to Labour in 2007/8 and what happened to the Tories in 1994. Outside of that, other than the vocal minority on both sides, most people don't care.
This is a fair point, although I don't think the media fail to challenge him, but you are right on the 2010-2019 Tory Govt. For a long time it was about "Correcting Labours mistakes". Not true of course, but it was right that the books needed balancing.I think Bob's point is that the conservatives political cover during the 2010's was almost entirely 'cleaning up the mess left by labour' and this was very very rarely challenged in the media. Now Boris is permitted by the same media to absolve himself and his government of all responsibility for his parties period in government, this doesn't happen by accident. He even nearly got away with running in 2019 on a slogan of 'Britain Deserves Better' ffs
The irony is that with hindsight, the Tories probably wish they had lost the 2010 election. Whomever was in power would have wielded the austerity axe and the Tories could have avoided their reputation (fair or otherwise) for being pro-austerity. Their Lib Dem coalition partners, probably wish that too..
Johnson has quite cleverly managed to pivot the party away from being associated with the Cameron years. Brexit of course helps, as that is a clear difference between now and then, as does his style of leadership, as well as some practical policy differences that do suggest the current Tories are a pretty different party to only a few years ago.
I think in time we will view Johnson as changing the Tories in a similar way to how Brown/Blair changed Labour.
Personally, for anyone interested, I had never voted Tory before Brexit. I have generally done so since, although not exclusively.
And it's swing voters who determine elections.
About £13. Even at £9.50 it's only just over approx. £18K before deductions for most people. £13 would bring it up to around £25K before deductions. It's a misnomer anyway because many people working will need to claim in-work-benefits e.g. HB.
I'm more interested in a Universal Basic Income anyway. It'll come. It's just a matter of time. Multi-millionaires telling the rest of us how to manage and live is way too hypocritical for me, especially when they've inherited their wealth in the first place.
Pretty much where I am at.
UBI is fascinating.
Reading a lot of research on it and looking at the pilot schemes.
I think for many people they will struggle with the idea of giving everyone 'free money' and believe it will make people lazy... which hasn't been the experience of the pilots which, because of the UBI safety net, has seen innovation explode, business start, an increase in people getting involved in arts and music, people being happier as they do what they want to so... and then some of the more menial jobs still being taken by people who want to supplement their UBI income. And yes, there were some examples of people who just didn't want to do anything.... BUT they still spend their UBI money and bounce up the economy. Furthermore..... state schemes and welfare costs go down as UBI replaced some of them. Additionally, some parents want to spend more time with their kids rather than being forced into jobs they hate to pay the bills and pay for someone else to look after their kids.. surely we should allow them to spend more time parenting and less time being forced to work - because that what capitalism demands.
Anyway, I am still learning about it and think its fascinating.
We're still stuck in old politics and economics. Climate change will be the driver and associated health and travel issues. The environment we live in will determine how we survive and it won't look anything like it does now over the next couple of decades. People just don't want to face it because it's too big an ask. UBI will have to be part of the plan though.
I recall you calling George Osborne a centrist...
I'm sceptical, but also interested in it.
What I don't really understand is how or why it would be so transformative. If someone is currently unemployed or in low paid work and struggling with housing costs then they will receive benefits for "doing nothing". UBI essentially proposes the same doesn't it?
Is the main difference that they know they will keep the UBI even if they take on work? I can see how this provides some stability, but again isn't entirely different in practice to how benefits currently work.
I also struggle to see how other costs won't just realign themselves to the new income reality.
I think the whitewash was more about 'Get Brexit Done' than 'Britain Deserves Better (than us)' and I think if you took 100 people and asked them what the Tory slogan was in 2019, absolutely nobody would say the second one.
I don't live in Wales, I live in a safe Tory seat in Hertfordshire. Fully aware of how the Tories are viewed round here, they are the default vote for many (similar to Labour in Wales) and don't really have to earn it. Having said that I do know a handful who will never vote for them again because of Brexit, a handful isn't enough to win a seat though.
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