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Agree on this. This thread is bloody ridiculous that people are so vexxed by a decent rise in the minimum wage.Originally Posted by blue matt
I cannot abide party politics like that. This isn't City v Swans.
What is it you are after? You don't want a discussion because whenever anybody brings any nuance to the thread you spit out your dummy about their political bias. Harsh reality is that 20 quid a week won't make much of a difference if any and the next few years are likely to be pretty bad for the poorest as the financial impact of covid actually hits.
The Tories don't need sludge, they are single handedly realigning the economy 50p at a time.
That literally is the opposite of what's happening. The minimum wage is an important part of our economy and it rising by double the rate of inflation is a good thing. If you can't see that it's up to you.
Does it solve the world? No. Is it a good move? Yes.
You can suggest other things if you want but just saying that nothing matters doesn't really wmsh.
What would you suggest?
What use is applauding a party? I mean't black and white in the sense that you don't seem to be able to (or maybe it doesn't suit you to) view this issue with any level of complexity i.e. the net effect on the poorest once everything is taken into account. You can't just view every policy in a vacuum, clapping the good and booing the bad, it's infantile.
The minimum wage has risen by about £2.30 an hour since 2016. On full time hours that's £92 a week, nearly £400 a month or £5,000 a year. To the lowest paid.
If you can't see any benefit in that then so be it. We agree to disagree.
Again, that is quite literally the opposite of what I have done. I don't pretend that this solves the worlds problems. Housing, other benefits, cost of living are all critical but someone's wage is a pretty important part of someone's life and seeing a wage rise is a good thing that should be applauded.
It doesn't have to be party political. That's what frustrates me. It makes any kind of mature discussion about it nigh on impossible and it always starts about three posts in to any topic
Seems we have more wage rises
""Pay rise for five million public sector workers""
"""End of Covid salary freeze and boost for lowest-paid as Rishi Sunak prepares to declare growth back on track in Budget speech""
I'm sure we all want more ,but it's a start not easy on the lower pay scales of life .
Most of the wider economic data is pretty positive at the moment suggesting a growing economy with lower unemployment and higher growth, at least at a national level if not for individuals.
What worries me is the level of borrowing. Was £21bn last month.
£21,000,000,0000. Twenty-one thousand million pounds in one month.
It's pretty scary. That really does need to come down pretty steadily
Depends how far you want to look. They won the 2019 election and promising a rise from 8.72 to 9.21 and then quickly reneged on this and only upped it to 8.91. If the policy pledge wasn't broken and min wage was 9.21 today and rising to 9.50 we would be looking at a rise almost exactly at the level of CPI although who knows what CPI will be in 12 months. You have to look at any economic measure in the context of a net gain/loss but also crucially within the context of previous measures also.
I agree, and that's a fair point. I think it's acceptable that covid did change any planned increases as it was such an extraordinary shock to the economy and priority shifted to paying furlough etc.
Nonetheless, from where we are today, it is still a considerable rise. I recollect at times in the past we saw 10p, 15p annual rises in the minimum wage, which even allowing for inflation is far below what we are seeing.
As ever, inflation does bite into these figures, but that has always been the case of course
This is the eighty sixth message in this thread and, up to now, you've posted twenty of them - contributing nearly a quarter of the messages in quite a long thread while saying, more or less, the same thing brings to mind someone who used to post on here who also had the word "Wales" in their posting name.
You and Life on Mars seem to have a problem with understanding what the word/verb "balance" means. In your case approaching political threads on here and consistently arguing from a Brexit favouring, Johnson and Government supporting point of view does not constitute a balanced approach, quite the opposite in fact.
Your posting history is available for anyone to look at and, having done so through the first eight pages, I find that your stance when contributing to threads like this is completely predictable (see paragraph above).
In the interest of proper balance, I'll say that of course any one is going to welcome a rise in the minimum wage - calling it a "drop in the ocean" and a "sop" (as I have done) is not saying that there shouldn't be an increase, as you and others have alleged, it's questioning whether it is enough.
I made the point that this Government, which despite Johnson's attempts to portray it as a new one two years into its existence and unrelated to what came before it, is from the same party as the one which spent the 2010s levelling Britain down with it's austerity programme and that the 59p an hour increase is only a partial giving back of what has been taken from the poorest families. All you could say in reply was something along the lines of even if you're right, the increase is still a good thing. That's not balanced thinking, that's just ploughing on with your original point of view in the face of a differing opinion - the in vogue term for it is doubling down, something that hardly indicates a balanced approach.
As I pointed out earlier, you may have to go back a long way in my posting history to find them, but there are messages where I've given this Government credit for some of the things that they've done and, until it became clear that their shambolic handling of the pandemic in its early days had made the death toll in this country worse than it should have been, I argued that it was not a party political issue and so I was not going to be critical of the Government. Furthermore, as mentioned earlier, you would not have to go back too far in my posting history to find messages critical of the Labour Party - there are plenty of them, so, although I said it in jest, first time, I repeat that, strange as it may seem, my political contributions on here are more balanced than yours.
BollocksThis thread is full of Tories trying to convince others that they aren’t Tories
Seriously, I’ve not seen any signs of political balance on here from you. Very occasionally, I’ve given the Government credit for something they’ve done and I often have a go at Labour. Based on what’s posted on here, I could almost argue that I’m more balanced than you - emphasis on almost.
Sludge you really are stuck in the past.
You have to look at the parties as they are now.
Labour are not the same party as they were in the 70s
Whether a party was previously for or against it, is that what is most important here?
I'd personally wish we didn't need the minimum wage, but we know some employers take the piss.
I happen to know a couple of the economists who work that the IFS sludge
If £20 a week won't make a difference does that mean the £20 reduction of UC also won't make a difference?
You say the Tories now are the same party as under Cameron etc al. Was the Blair Labour Party the same as the 1970s Labour Party or do you accept over time parties can change outlook?
What's bollocks, me saying I'm more balanced in my political posts than James Wales (which was originally meant as a joke, but I now think it has an element of truth to it) or me saying that I have a balanced political approach on here? If you mean that latter, you won't get much of an argument from me about it, but if you mean the former, I don't think it's anywhere near as straightforward as you claim.
Hardly the same thing, the Labour party went through eighteen years of opposition and soul searching before emerging a different type of party (although the Labour Governments of the 70s were hardly well to the left), whereas what we're seeing now is an opportunistic "remodelling" designed to avoid responsibility for previous decisions by Conservative Governments during a continuous and unbroken spell in power - you show me the voting records where Johnson et al were voting against budgets by Osborne, Hammond etc . and I'll concede you have a point.
There was radio silence on here until anther poster popped up and got the ball rolling on this one..
I'd make it law that all economists can only be paid the minimum wage.
I meant your whole post was bollocks. You come across as someone who likes to think they're a critical thinker, but you're as myopic as the rest of them.
We have pro Tories lauding the rise, pro Labour claiming its not their policy, and both sides are missing that in one of the richest countries in the world, we need a minimum/living wage at all.
if you think the pro-EU party of Cameron is the same as the pro Brexit party of Johnson you're even more one eyed than I first thought.
The Tories of 2010 are long gone and this current cohort are very much further to the right than Cameron and Osborne's party ever were. Pavlov's dogs springs to mind, both those of you on the left and those on the right.
You aren't. I may be consistent in what I defend but that's in relation to how the threads transpire when any sensible debate is quickly derailed, usually by people being called 'effing Tories' etc. It makes it impossible.
You didn't say minimum wage rises are a good thing you went straight into a (borderline mistruth) about a universal credit cut. Sludge then follows up with insulting anyone of s different political bent (admittedly with humour). Someone arguing against that isn't showing a lack of balance they are making a plea for reason.
Obviously there is a wider topic. Perhaps start one on the pros and cons of the Conservative govt 2010-2021 and I will post what I think is the good and bad.
But on a thread about rises in wages for the poorest I will argue in favour and if you oppose I think you should use reason to do it, not just rank political sectarianism.
I happen to agree with a lot of what you say about the 2010-2019ish Tory Govt's. Austerity, necessary to a degree, went too far but this thread wasn't about that topic and pretty soon into it the insults flowed, and you aren't picking up on the people doing that incidentally.
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