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Thread: £9.50 Minimum Living Wage On The Way

  1. #126

    Re: £9.50 Minimum Living Wage On The Way

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Cartman View Post
    I think Bob's point is that the conservatives political cover during the 2010's was almost entirely 'cleaning up the mess left by labour' and this was very very rarely challenged in the media. Now Boris is permitted by the same media to absolve himself and his government of all responsibility for his parties period in government, this doesn't happen by accident. He even nearly got away with running in 2019 on a slogan of 'Britain Deserves Better' ffs
    Exactly what I meant - "levelling up" is laughable, "getting back to when it was not quite as bad as it is now" isn't quite as punchy though is it.

  2. #127

    Re: £9.50 Minimum Living Wage On The Way

    Quote Originally Posted by the other bob wilson View Post
    Exactly what I meant - "levelling up" is laughable, "getting back to when it was not quite as bad as it is now" isn't quite as punchy though is it.
    Obviously all slogans are by definition pretty banal and meaningless, and it goes without saying that it's delivery that matters. But personally I don't see what's wrong with 'Levelling up'

    It says to me that we know mistakes were made in the past and we want to create a strong economy with a greater emphasis on helping those towards the bottom.

    It's quite clever politically too, because it means you can throw accusations of 'levelling down' at the opposition.

    It's just a slogan however and it is all about delivering real results. I'm sure we can all agree on that!

  3. #128

    Re: £9.50 Minimum Living Wage On The Way

    Quote Originally Posted by dembethewarrior View Post
    So suggest one for in London and out of London then.
    Probably needs to be more nuanced than that although it is a start. I can't see how it should be less than £13 in London when thinking about accommodation vs travel cost. As somebody who doesn't live in London but still pays ~£900 a month renting a 1bed (and that is complete bottom end where I live), I can't find a way to define a 'rest of uk' min wage.

  4. #129

    Re: £9.50 Minimum Living Wage On The Way

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric the Half a Bee View Post
    I recall you calling George Osborne a centrist...
    Lebron James thinks Peter Crouch is a midget

  5. #130

    Re: £9.50 Minimum Living Wage On The Way

    Quote Originally Posted by JamesWales View Post
    I'm sceptical, but also interested in it.

    What I don't really understand is how or why it would be so transformative. If someone is currently unemployed or in low paid work and struggling with housing costs then they will receive benefits for "doing nothing". UBI essentially proposes the same doesn't it?

    Is the main difference that they know they will keep the UBI even if they take on work? I can see how this provides some stability, but again isn't entirely different in practice to how benefits currently work.

    I also struggle to see how other costs won't just realign themselves to the new income reality.
    The main difference is that it is applied within a future where most human beings have no use at all and therefore the vast majority are unemployed. If Humans are rendered useless in that way then you probably have 3 options, a reasonable living UBI, 'north korea' (where lots of people are essentially actors, pretending to work - in before feedy with some public sector slur) or mad max where bezos allows us to have water 3 times a week. UBI isn't there to transform, a transformation of society requires it.

  6. #131

    Re: £9.50 Minimum Living Wage On The Way

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Cartman View Post
    The main difference is that it is applied within a future where most human beings have no use at all and therefore the vast majority are unemployed. If Humans are rendered useless in that way then you probably have 3 options, a reasonable living UBI, 'north korea' (where lots of people are essentially actors, pretending to work - in before feedy with some public sector slur) or mad max where bezos allows us to have water 3 times a week. UBI isn't there to transform, a transformation of society requires it.
    Okay, cool, ta.

  7. #132

    Re: £9.50 Minimum Living Wage On The Way

    Quote Originally Posted by JamesWales View Post
    Obviously all slogans are by definition pretty banal and meaningless, and it goes without saying that it's delivery that matters. But personally I don't see what's wrong with 'Levelling up'

    It says to me that we know mistakes were made in the past and we want to create a strong economy with a greater emphasis on helping those towards the bottom.

    It's quite clever politically too, because it means you can throw accusations of 'levelling down' at the opposition.

    It's just a slogan however and it is all about delivering real results. I'm sure we can all agree on that!
    The Leave/Conservative side of the divide have won the War of the Slogan hands down in recent years.

  8. #133

    Re: £9.50 Minimum Living Wage On The Way

    Quote Originally Posted by JamesWales View Post
    I'm sceptical, but also interested in it.

    What I don't really understand is how or why it would be so transformative. If someone is currently unemployed or in low paid work and struggling with housing costs then they will receive benefits for "doing nothing". UBI essentially proposes the same doesn't it?

    Is the main difference that they know they will keep the UBI even if they take on work? I can see how this provides some stability, but again isn't entirely different in practice to how benefits currently work.

    I also struggle to see how other costs won't just realign themselves to the new income reality.
    The attitude that people trying to survive are 'doing nothing' is a scary one, especially if they're already in full-time work and still can't support themselves. UBI is nothing like the current benefits - which are meant to be social security - recipients of social security were demonised under the Cameron/Clegg coalition and the degradation that chronically disabled people are subjected to by private companies is cruel and ironically, discriminatory.

    People need to feel valued and safe. UBI starts to address those issues. But, the misinformation train has already left the station and there are predominantly US 'studies' advocating the status quo.

    People need to stop thinking like 2021 is going to look anything like 2031 or 2041. It's not. The current incumbents of power will be long gone, as will our easy lives. With an increase in AI and human population how will capitalism sustain itself? It can't and it won't. UBI will be start but I doubt future generations are going to look back and say, 'thank you for procrastinating Grandad'.

  9. #134

    Re: £9.50 Minimum Living Wage On The Way

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Cartman View Post
    The main difference is that it is applied within a future where most human beings have no use at all and therefore the vast majority are unemployed. If Humans are rendered useless in that way then you probably have 3 options, a reasonable living UBI, 'north korea' (where lots of people are essentially actors, pretending to work - in before feedy with some public sector slur) or mad max where bezos allows us to have water 3 times a week. UBI isn't there to transform, a transformation of society requires it.
    Brilliant summary Eric! I think it'll be Bezos and Musk factions slogging it out Mad Max style to be honest.

  10. #135

    Re: £9.50 Minimum Living Wage On The Way

    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen's Nephew View Post
    The attitude that people trying to survive are 'doing nothing' is a scary one, especially if they're already in full-time work and still can't support themselves. UBI is nothing like the current benefits - which are meant to be social security - recipients of social security were demonised under the Cameron/Clegg coalition and the degradation that chronically disabled people are subjected to by private companies is cruel and ironically, discriminatory.

    People need to feel valued and safe. UBI starts to address those issues. But, the misinformation train has already left the station and there are predominantly US 'studies' advocating the status quo.

    People need to stop thinking like 2021 is going to look anything like 2031 or 2041. It's not. The current incumbents of power will be long gone, as will our easy lives. With an increase in AI and human population how will capitalism sustain itself? It can't and it won't. UBI will be start but I doubt future generations are going to look back and say, 'thank you for procrastinating Grandad'.
    To clarify: I don't think they are "doing nothing", I said that because an earlier post said that is a criticism of UBI.

    My point was that I didnt understand in practice how it was different to current benefits, although I do appreciate, in theory, it could provide more of a safety blanket.

  11. #136

    Re: £9.50 Minimum Living Wage On The Way

    Quote Originally Posted by JamesWales View Post
    To clarify: I don't think they are "doing nothing", I said that because an earlier post said that is a criticism of UBI.

    My point was that I didnt understand in practice how it was different to current benefits, although I do appreciate, in theory, it could provide more of a safety blanket.
    I didn't think you were. But there are people who do so I just wanted to say something about it.

  12. #137

    Re: £9.50 Minimum Living Wage On The Way

    Quote Originally Posted by JamesWales View Post
    To clarify: I don't think they are "doing nothing", I said that because an earlier post said that is a criticism of UBI.

    My point was that I didnt understand in practice how it was different to current benefits, although I do appreciate, in theory, it could provide more of a safety blanket.
    Why have such strong opinions about things you don’t fully understand ?

  13. #138

    Re: £9.50 Minimum Living Wage On The Way

    Quote Originally Posted by Croesy Blue View Post
    Why have such strong opinions about things you don’t fully understand ?
    I don't have strong opinions about it. As you will see if you scroll up.

  14. #139

    Re: £9.50 Minimum Living Wage On The Way

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Cartman View Post
    Probably needs to be more nuanced than that although it is a start. I can't see how it should be less than £13 in London when thinking about accommodation vs travel cost. As somebody who doesn't live in London but still pays ~£900 a month renting a 1bed (and that is complete bottom end where I live), I can't find a way to define a 'rest of uk' min wage.
    I didn't read Demb's question properly and the 'in London' part. My view was based outside of London - well, Cardiff actually - and was some crude, quick and dirty mental arithmetic. I lived and worked in London in the 90's and wouldn't know where to start for a minimum wage these days. But you're right, it needs more analyses and research. The UK regions are so different.

  15. #140

    Re: £9.50 Minimum Living Wage On The Way

    Quote Originally Posted by Feedback View Post
    I'll introduce you to them sludge. A £1000 to the charity of your choice if I'm shown to be wrong. £1000 to my charity of choice if I'm right.

    Just so you know, my charity is the Rescue Hotel who are building a new dogs home on Penarth Road. I'll let them know you'll be making the donation before the weekend. please have courage in your convictions as I'm sure you'll agree the cause is worthy

    I know someone who runs an international top 3 bank but I wouldn't introduce him to you

    Tell me their names , I can speak to them myself and tell them you think they are second rate keynsians

  16. #141
    Feedback
    Guest

    Re: £9.50 Minimum Living Wage On The Way

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric the Half a Bee View Post
    I recall you calling George Osborne a centrist...
    Osborne was a centrist, certainly his approach was not all tax cuts followed by cuts to spending. Under Osborne, the Tories embarked on a policy of increasing tax revenues as a proportion of national income way above what New Labour had done previously.

  17. #142
    Feedback
    Guest

    Re: £9.50 Minimum Living Wage On The Way

    Quote Originally Posted by Croesy Blue View Post
    Why have such strong opinions about things you don’t fully understand ?
    this is not your first day on the internet is it?

  18. #143

    Re: £9.50 Minimum Living Wage On The Way

    Quote Originally Posted by Feedback View Post
    Osborne was a centrist, certainly his approach was not all tax cuts followed by cuts to spending. Under Osborne, the Tories embarked on a policy of increasing tax revenues as a proportion of national income way above what New Labour had done previously.
    Austerity

    Huge cuts to spending

    Nothing to do with Osborne

    It must have been someone else

  19. #144
    Feedback
    Guest

    Re: £9.50 Minimum Living Wage On The Way

    Quote Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY View Post
    I know someone who runs an international top 3 bank but I wouldn't introduce him to you

    Tell me their names , I can speak to them myself and tell them you think they are second rate keynsians
    I don't think I said they're second rate. I said the IFS is full of economists who lean to the left. Conversely, I'd also say those at the top of the IFS tree lean to the right.

    One of the economists is a local boy from Ponty, ex Cambridge and LSE. just saying


  20. #145
    Feedback
    Guest

    Re: £9.50 Minimum Living Wage On The Way

    Quote Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY View Post
    Austerity

    Huge cuts to spending

    Nothing to do with Osborne

    It must have been someone else
    Sludge,

    as always with you it is black and white with nothing inbetween (a bit like your ears).

    The deficit was £157bn in 2008 and back then the general perception was that it needed trimming. The way to do this was cuts to public spending. Now if Osborne embarked on a cuts only programme without raising taxes, there would be some merit in your argument. But Osborne opted to raise taxes and cut services to try and balance the books.

  21. #146

    Re: £9.50 Minimum Living Wage On The Way

    Quote Originally Posted by Feedback View Post
    this is not your first day on the internet is it?
    I wish it was your last

  22. #147

    Re: £9.50 Minimum Living Wage On The Way

    Quote Originally Posted by Feedback View Post
    Osborne was a centrist, certainly his approach was not all tax cuts followed by cuts to spending. Under Osborne, the Tories embarked on a policy of increasing tax revenues as a proportion of national income way above what New Labour had done previously.
    He was considered too left within the Tory party, introduced triple pension lock some folk I know like that policy.

  23. #148

    Re: £9.50 Minimum Living Wage On The Way

    Quote Originally Posted by JamesWales View Post
    I'm sceptical, but also interested in it.

    What I don't really understand is how or why it would be so transformative. If someone is currently unemployed or in low paid work and struggling with housing costs then they will receive benefits for "doing nothing". UBI essentially proposes the same doesn't it?

    Is the main difference that they know they will keep the UBI even if they take on work? I can see how this provides some stability, but again isn't entirely different in practice to how benefits currently work.

    I also struggle to see how other costs won't just realign themselves to the new income reality.
    Yeah it's super interesting.

    And the reality is that there needs to be social change as well... So people are unshackled by the capatalist systems of old which quite frankly have proven that the markets are not the Be all and End all ... And can cause huge disparity in wealth.

    In the valleys there are three generations of people who gave been on benefits and the mentality becomes institutionalised. And sadly the Tories stripped away funding for surestart centres which were helping address that.

    Of course the answer is not cutting benefits... I certainly wouldn't want someone working for me because they are forced to because their benefits have been cut ...

    But the answer is of course a different structure of supporting people and also improving opportunities, self esteem etc

  24. #149

    Re: £9.50 Minimum Living Wage On The Way

    I remember my sister had a small business, she started out on her own then as she got busier she needed to take on help, I remember it being a while before she started making any real money as she saw the benefit of having help there.

    If she had to pay £13 an hour to those staff it wouldn't be worth opening the doors.

    I can imagine plenty of others are in a similar position.

  25. #150

    Re: £9.50 Minimum Living Wage On The Way

    Many Skilled Manual jobs dont even earn £13 a hour, Hairdressers, people employed in the building trades ( even getting close to carpenters ), its certainly above even Teacher assistants in Primary schools aswell

    So I guess that'll mean they will get a increase in salary

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