Is rushing the kids through working?

[blue lewj]

I had reservations when we started to throw kids in large numbers into the team and squad this season.

I questioned how an academy that produced nothing for many years could suddenly start producing kids by the bucketload to supplement our squad.

I also questioned how a competent Under 23 player could transform into a competent Championship player overnight. For some simply giving them game time would've seen this happen but I am not sure this is necessarily right.

In my opinion it has gone how I thought it might. Some showing some promise but are quite rough round the edges with others just basically looking like Under 23 kids in a fully pro league.

They need to be introduced more gradually into a squad that has more experience and are not getting beaten every week for me.

Many said it was fine throwing the kids in if we stayed up. As it is the only thing keeping us out of the bottom three is Derby's points deduction.

How do you lot think they've done?

[the other bob wilson]

I had reservations when we started to throw kids in large numbers into the team and squad this season.

I questioned how an academy that produced nothing for many years could suddenly start producing kids by the bucketload to supplement our squad.

I also questioned how a competent Under 23 player could transform into a competent Championship player overnight. For some simply giving them game time would've seen this happen but I am not sure this is necessarily right.

In my opinion it has gone how I thought it might. Some showing some promise but are quite rough round the edges with others just basically looking like Under 23 kids in a fully pro league.

They need to be introduced more gradually into a squad that has more experience and are not getting beaten every week for me.

Many said it was fine throwing the kids in if we stayed up. As it is the only thing keeping us out of the bottom three is Derby's points deduction.

How do you lot think they've done?

Well, it all depends what you were expecting from them I’d say. For example, anyone who was expecting King and Davies to transform Saturday’s match in the ten minutes they were on is living in cloud cuckoo land in my book and it’s the same for players such as Evans and, at times, Colwill when they’ve come on.

I’d like to think I’m being honest and fair in this assessment of the Academy youngsters who have featured in the first team this season (I don’t count players such as Brown, Sang, D’Almeda and Denham because they’ve not come through the system at Cardiff).

Bagan - has had his-problems and has struggled more defensively than he did last season, but I don’t think he’s been as bad as some of his critics make out. Like all of our home produced youngsters, he’s braver on the ball than most of his seniors.
Tom Davies - struggled early on against Sutton, but grew into the game and provided an assist for Murphy’s goal. You wonder if he’s up to starting a league game at the moment, but City we’re always blooding local players at his age until the last decade or so.
Bowen - hasn’t been helped by having to play in a position that he’s not best suited to, but, despite some quiet periods, has done well. Would be my first choice in central midfield, probably alongside Ralls, currently if fit.
King - one piece of good defensive covering which stopped our margin of defeat getting worse on Saturday, but he’s another who I think may not be ready yet - he’s been excellent for the Under 23s lately though.
Evans - did little in his first two appearances as sub, but there was definite promise from him at Fulham in a demoralised team, could perhaps provide some of the moments of magic that we are so in need of following the departure of the likes of Tomlin, Wilson etc.
Colwill - patchy overall, but, Giles apart possibly, is already the player most likely to provide those Tomlin, Wilson type moments in the current squad. I’d like to see how he would do playing behind the striker as opposed to out wide.
Harris - thought he did well last season which only makes it more disappointing that he is struggling this time around - playing for us up front is very hard though.
Isaak Davies - impossible to judge on Saturday’s performance, but he is intelligent, hard working and a good finisher at Under 23 level.

I think that’s all the ones who have played first team football this season and I’d add Keenan Patten as well who has been unlucky not to get his chance yet. George Ratcliffe is another one who I could imagine playing first team football, in the FA Cup say this season.

Add in those players I mentioned earlier who are not Academy products and Zimba and there’s plenty for a new manager with a reputation for being good at developing youngsters to work with.

However, clearly, it’s better for young players to be blooded in a more successful football environment where they can be encouraged and supported by the senior pros in the team. That’s not happening at the moment because, frankly, the older players have enough on their plate already to occupy them.

While the current situation persists, I think it’s unrealistic to expect the youngsters to be the drivers behind any recovery - the seniors have to do that and if they can, I think we’ll be better placed as to judge which youngsters have the best chance of making it.

[blue lewj]

Well, it all depends what you were expecting from them I’d say. For example, anyone who was expecting King and Davies to transform Saturday’s match in the ten minutes they were on is living in cloud cuckoo land in my book and it’s the same for players such as Evans and, at times, Colwill when they’ve come on.

I’d like to think I’m being honest and fair in this assessment of the Academy youngsters who have featured in the first team this season (I don’t count players such as Brown, Sang, D’Almeda and Denham because they’ve not come through the system at Cardiff).

Bagan - has had his-problems and has struggled more defensively than he did last season, but I don’t think he’s been as bad as some of his critics make out. Like all of our home produced youngsters, he’s braver on the ball than most of his seniors.
Tom Davies - struggled early on against Sutton, but grew into the game and provided an assist for Murphy’s goal. You wonder if he’s up to starting a league game at the moment, but City we’re always blooding local players at his age until the last decade or so.
Bowen - hasn’t been helped by having to play in a position that he’s not best suited to, but, despite some quiet periods, has done well. Would be my first choice in central midfield, probably alongside Ralls, currently if fit.
King - one piece of good defensive covering which stopped our margin of defeat getting worse on Saturday, but he’s another who I think may not be ready yet - he’s been excellent for the Under 23s lately though.
Evans - did little in his first two appearances as sub, but there was definite promise from him at Fulham in a demoralised team, could perhaps provide some of the moments of magic that we are so in need of following the departure of the likes of Tomlin, Wilson etc.
Colwill - patchy overall, but, Giles apart possibly, is already the player most likely to provide those Tomlin, Wilson type moments in the current squad. I’d like to see how he would do playing behind the striker as opposed to out wide.
Harris - thought he did well last season which only makes it more disappointing that he is struggling this time around - playing for us up front is very hard though.
Isaak Davies - impossible to judge on Saturday’s performance, but he is intelligent, hard working and a good finisher at Under 23 level.

I think that’s all the ones who have played first team football this season and I’d add Keenan Patten as well who has been unlucky not to get his chance yet. George Ratcliffe is another one who I could imagine playing first team football, in the FA Cup say this season.

Add in those players I mentioned earlier who are not Academy products and Zimba and there’s plenty for a new manager with a reputation for being good at developing youngsters to work with.

However, clearly, it’s better for young players to be blooded in a more successful football environment where they can be encouraged and supported by the senior pros in the team. That’s not happening at the moment because, frankly, the older players have enough on their plate already to occupy them.

While the current situation persists, I think it’s unrealistic to expect the youngsters to be the drivers behind any recovery - the seniors have to do that and if they can, I think we’ll be better placed as to judge which youngsters have the best chance of making it.

I'd agree with most of that.

The next manager is key but putting too much pressure on them at this stage and letting them play too big a role could work out badly for their development and the clubs short term future.

If they are good enough then bring them through but in the right environment. The club, as it is currently is not it, and if anything they need to be bit part players in the main.

I think the whole 'we're going with kids now' attitude from the club is another sign of how naive they actually are.
As I've said before, if it was that easy nobody would be paying transfer fees and hefty wages.

[Tuerto]

It's a good question. Depends on what's meant by working. In terms of league position, no it's not, although it was never going to be about that.

I think that what we need to see is these players developing, gaining confidence and self belief which should lead to better performance from them, it has to be seen over the medium term.

I haven't seen anything from any of them that really stands out if I'm being honest, but maybe that's down to how we play and a group of appalling senior professional players who are letting them down. Maybe a different approach will help and suit them in their quest to improve, although it could work the other way as more will be expected of them technically. Time will tell.

[Sunnysideup]

Totally agree with that Paul
How many on here are disappointed with Collins up front?
Had a fantastic season with Luton but couldn’t hit a barn door with a beach ball from six yards for us.
I’d happily start Zimba instead of Collins and I’m sure this will be the case - you’ve got to start the player in form- Zimba’s on fire 🔥⚽️⚽️
As for the other youngsters Kieron Evans has only come off the bench with no time left on the clock and the game already done
He needs at least a half to warm into any game and show us fans exactly what he can do.
Kieffer was largely ineffective as he didn’t get any service
Apart from Giles there’s no crosses getting into the box
I forget the actual game but when Mad Mick brought on Bagan and Colwill we suddenly had an attacking left side and service into kieffer
Pace wins games.
Morison knows the players at his disposal and I’m quietly confident.

[Rjk]

The previous approach of never playing anyone under the age of 24 didn't seem to be very good at producing players that were good enough for some reason. We knew we would have to be patient with them, but I still believe that if we get through this season unscathed (i.e. avoiding relegation) and 2-3 or more young players make the grade at this level then it at least gives us something to build on next season. Of course the main driver is cost - we made a loss of 24 million in 2020. Since then our income has also reduced by more than 30 million, and under FFP we are only allowed to make a loss of 39 million over 3 seasons. If we halve our losses from 2020 in 2021 and then halve them again to 2022 then we would have a 3 season loss of £42 million, which would break FFP rules, so we clearly have to a lot more than just tinkering around the edges, and we don't have any senior players that we could realistically sell for a chunk of the money. Bringing the youth through is definitely the best way to try to secure our longer term survival. McCarthy was a steady experienced manager who actually has a good track record of bringing youngsters through, so it is possible that that had a part to play in his signing. It didn't work, we have to hope the next guy can make it work, as I don't see another realistic strategy.

[Sunnysideup]

Tan has already said that there’s no money available in January and none available next summer!!!
The Kids and loans are our only hope 😶

[Hilts]

The youngsters and the academy are a major plus.

While the 1st team is a disaster and the owners and board can take the blame then credit must be given to the positives. Ie great stadium and what looks like the best crop of youngsters for years.

Im sure if they were surrounded by better 1st team players , 1st team manager and tactics theyd thrive.

Probably need the courage to introduce more to the 1st team.

[blue lewj]

I think many have been let down by the experienced pros at the club also.

Many are either out of form or seriously on a downward spiral. Let's hope the new guy can get a tune out of whatever mixture they put together.

[Nobody's Rep]

Well, it all depends what you were expecting from them I’d say. For example, anyone who was expecting King and Davies to transform Saturday’s match in the ten minutes they were on is living in cloud cuckoo land in my book and it’s the same for players such as Evans and, at times, Colwill when they’ve come on.

I’d like to think I’m being honest and fair in this assessment of the Academy youngsters who have featured in the first team this season (I don’t count players such as Brown, Sang, D’Almeda and Denham because they’ve not come through the system at Cardiff).

Bagan - has had his-problems and has struggled more defensively than he did last season, but I don’t think he’s been as bad as some of his critics make out. Like all of our home produced youngsters, he’s braver on the ball than most of his seniors.
Tom Davies - struggled early on against Sutton, but grew into the game and provided an assist for Murphy’s goal. You wonder if he’s up to starting a league game at the moment, but City we’re always blooding local players at his age until the last decade or so.
Bowen - hasn’t been helped by having to play in a position that he’s not best suited to, but, despite some quiet periods, has done well. Would be my first choice in central midfield, probably alongside Ralls, currently if fit.
King - one piece of good defensive covering which stopped our margin of defeat getting worse on Saturday, but he’s another who I think may not be ready yet - he’s been excellent for the Under 23s lately though.
Evans - did little in his first two appearances as sub, but there was definite promise from him at Fulham in a demoralised team, could perhaps provide some of the moments of magic that we are so in need of following the departure of the likes of Tomlin, Wilson etc.
Colwill - patchy overall, but, Giles apart possibly, is already the player most likely to provide those Tomlin, Wilson type moments in the current squad. I’d like to see how he would do playing behind the striker as opposed to out wide.
Harris - thought he did well last season which only makes it more disappointing that he is struggling this time around - playing for us up front is very hard though.
Isaak Davies - impossible to judge on Saturday’s performance, but he is intelligent, hard working and a good finisher at Under 23 level.

I think that’s all the ones who have played first team football this season and I’d add Keenan Patten as well who has been unlucky not to get his chance yet. George Ratcliffe is another one who I could imagine playing first team football, in the FA Cup say this season.

Add in those players I mentioned earlier who are not Academy products and Zimba and there’s plenty for a new manager with a reputation for being good at developing youngsters to work with.

However, clearly, it’s better for young players to be blooded in a more successful football environment where they can be encouraged and supported by the senior pros in the team. That’s not happening at the moment because, frankly, the older players have enough on their plate already to occupy them.

While the current situation persists, I think it’s unrealistic to expect the youngsters to be the drivers behind any recovery - the seniors have to do that and if they can, I think we’ll be better placed as to judge which youngsters have the best chance of making it.

Be interesting to see what % game time the young players have had in total this season I suspect it is not massive - also the combination of full starts and coming on as a sub and the state of the game at the time

Re Bagan - find it hard to judge overall because he has been part of a fairly dysfunctional defence and was not part of the 5 cb madness?

Re Harris - I gera ense he is playing a slightly different role this season and also with less attacking options alongside him - not uncommon for us to have 8 defence minded players alongside two attacking options of gile Moore Collins Harris and Colwill?

New coach with more of a attack minded leaning might just help

Also agree with the senior players needing to step up but with most out of contract soon are they focused on staying injury free prior to moving on?

[Rjk]

Be interesting to see what % game time the young players have had in total this season I suspect it is not massive - also the combination of full starts and coming on as a sub and the state of the game at the time

Re Bagan - find it hard to judge overall because he has been part of a fairly dysfunctional defence and was not part of the 5 cb madness?

Re Harris - I gera ense he is playing a slightly different role this season and also with less attacking options alongside him - not uncommon for us to have 8 defence minded players alongside two attacking options of gile Moore Collins Harris and Colwill?

New coach with more of a attack minded leaning might just help

Also agree with the senior players needing to step up but with most out of contract soon are they focused on staying injury free prior to moving on?

age-2020-21-101.jpg This was our age profile from last season - which was already moving in the right direction with minutes for the likes of Bagan and Harris. There were a lot of good teams amongst the youngest squads in the league - barnsley, reading, brentford, norwich etc. Coventry gave a lot of their minutes to young players and seem to be reaping the benefits of that now. thy'll probably update this graphic around the half-way point - i expect a big change from us.

[Nobody's Rep]

TOBW should be flattered as it looks like the other board are cutting and pasting your wise words with no credit 😂😂

Noticed they did it to a Scott Johnson article from WOL as well

[Sunnysideup]

Well said Hilts
The academy at the moment and this crop of youngsters are a major plus.
The problem with Mad Mick was he took the youngsters and kicked the confidence out of them by alienating them from the style of football they’ve been playing all their lives and moulding them into his madness.
We’re going to see a much better style of football under Morison 👍

[Rjk]

TOBW should be flattered as it looks like the other board are cutting and pasting your wise words with no credit ����

Noticed they did it to a Scott Johnson article from WOL as well

that happened to me once before, so they aren't at all discerning about the source of their information

[Nobody's Rep]

that happened to me once before, so they aren't at all discerning about the source of their information

I know I don't post anything worth copying but I am also banned from that board 😂😂

[Don Corleone]

that happened to me once before, so they aren't at all discerning about the source of their information

Yes, me too

[NYCBlue]

Results so far would indicate "no".

[Don Corleone]

I think we are rushing too many u23’s in at the same time, if it was just say Bagan or Colwill coming in to an established side with the senior pros on form they would have more chance to thrive and be allowed to get away with errors in the game. Now, especially in the case of Bagan playing in defence, any error gets magnified as the rest of the team are playing poorly.

When Ramsey made his first start for Cardiff at the age of 16 you could tell he was going to be some player on his very first appearance - same with Cameron Jerome. With the possible exception of Colwill, I havent got that sense from any of the others yet but it’s hard to judge with the senior pros around them being so poor and quite a few youngsters being thrown in to a struggling team all at the same time

[City123]

Be interesting to see what % game time the young players have had in total this season I suspect it is not massive - also the combination of full starts and coming on as a sub and the state of the game at the time

I agree, Saturday was an extreme (probably a f*ck you from Mick) but most of our games have featured some incredibly experienced players and that's where the blame for our poor start should lie. For me the emergence of youngsters who don't necesarily look out of place at this level (Bowen and Colwill the main two) has been one of the few good points in the season

[the other bob wilson]

I think we are rushing too many u23’s in at the same time, if it was just say Bagan or Colwill coming in to an established side with the senior pros on form they would have more chance to thrive and be allowed to get away with errors in the game. Now, especially in the case of Bagan playing in defence, any error gets magnified as the rest of the team are playing poorly.

When Ramsey made his first start for Cardiff at the age of 16 you could tell he was going to be some player on his very first appearance - same with Cameron Jerome. With the possible exception of Colwill, I havent got that sense from any of the others yet but it’s hard to judge with the senior pros around them being so poor and quite a few youngsters being thrown in to a struggling team all at the same time

Ramsey was exceptional though, while my first impression of Jerome in the first team was that he looked very raw. I think the Jerome opinion is far more common than the Ramsey one when a youngster first comes into the first team, but, over the months that followed, Jerome developed until he was one of the lynchpins of the team by the end of the season.

I’d say only Harris really out of the players I listed has played often enough to be judged in the same manner as Jerome was after that first season. In saying that, Joe Ledley was someone who came into a struggling side at seventeen and looked at home straight away - it’s a tough one, but I do think it’s unfair to write off any of our youngsters on the basis of how they’ve done in a side that is creating worst ever club records.

[the other bob wilson]

Be interesting to see what % game time the young players have had in total this season I suspect it is not massive - also the combination of full starts and coming on as a sub and the state of the game at the time

Re Bagan - find it hard to judge overall because he has been part of a fairly dysfunctional defence and was not part of the 5 cb madness?

Re Harris - I gera ense he is playing a slightly different role this season and also with less attacking options alongside him - not uncommon for us to have 8 defence minded players alongside two attacking options of gile Moore Collins Harris and Colwill?

New coach with more of a attack minded leaning might just help

Also agree with the senior players needing to step up but with most out of contract soon are they focused on staying injury free prior to moving on?

Good points, I agree that we might be surprised by how little time the youngsters have actually been on the pitch so far.

[the other bob wilson]

TOBW should be flattered as it looks like the other board are cutting and pasting your wise words with no credit ����

Noticed they did it to a Scott Johnson article from WOL as well

Disappointed he only used a couple of lines and ignored the rest

It’s par for the course on there isn’t it.

[the other bob wilson]

that happened to me once before, so they aren't at all discerning about the source of their information

[the other bob wilson]

Totally agree with that Paul
How many on here are disappointed with Collins up front?
Had a fantastic season with Luton but couldn’t hit a barn door with a beach ball from six yards for us.
I’d happily start Zimba instead of Collins and I’m sure this will be the case - you’ve got to start the player in form- Zimba’s on fire ��⚽️⚽️
As for the other youngsters Kieron Evans has only come off the bench with no time left on the clock and the game already done
He needs at least a half to warm into any game and show us fans exactly what he can do.
Kieffer was largely ineffective as he didn’t get any service
Apart from Giles there’s no crosses getting into the box
I forget the actual game but when Mad Mick brought on Bagan and Colwill we suddenly had an attacking left side and service into kieffer
Pace wins games.
Morison knows the players at his disposal and I’m quietly confident.

There was a a discussion on “expected goals” figures on here recently where someone said we were something like eighth in the xg Championship table - this could possibly be explained by something which I read not long ago putting Collins fourth in the individual xg table for the division - I struggle to remember Moore or Harris missing many sitters, but Collins certainly has.

[2b2bdoo]

Probably bringing through to many in one go but it is what it is, I wouldn’t say they have been any worse than the senior pros to be honest. Issue has been the team selection and tactics.