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Thread: Christmas

  1. #101

    Re: Christmas

    Quote Originally Posted by Croesy Blue View Post
    I’m not religious at all but there does seem to be a smug glee from some in telling moderate normal religious people that it’s all made up.
    I would suggest watching the following video about evidential audit trails about the background of various Jesus stories and how the the various branches of Abrahamist religions view 'him'. With respect, I think that very few believers actually know about such detail.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LTllC7TbM8M

  2. #102

    Re: Christmas

    Quote Originally Posted by Gofer Blue View Post
    The clue is in the second sentence. I presume you will claim these are inventions but even if they were, can you honestly disagree with the sentiments?
    Did Jesus say these words ?

    Or God ?

    Or was it JON ?

    Is he a prophet ? Was he a prophet ? I honestly don't know

    Lots of people throughout history say inspirational things

    Ghandi , King , Bertrand Russell

    I have more time for what they said that what someone 2000 years ago possibly said

  3. #103

    Re: Christmas

    Quote Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY View Post

    Ghandi , King , Russell , Sessions
    .

  4. #104

    Re: Christmas

    Quote Originally Posted by delmbox View Post
    .
    Russell Brand

    Russell Bertrand

    Stick with me on this

  5. #105

    Re: Christmas

    Quote Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY View Post
    Russell Brand

    Russell Bertrand

    Stick with me on this
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gxUPgMCmtwg

  6. #106

    Re: Christmas

    Quote Originally Posted by Taunton Blue Genie View Post
    I would suggest watching the following video about evidential audit trails about the background of various Jesus stories and how the the various branches of Abrahamist religions view 'him'. With respect, I think that very few believers actually know about such detail.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LTllC7TbM8M
    Certainly a lot of froth and intellectual back slapping, nothing new.
    What is your conclusion Sludge? Is Christ a madman, a liar, divine or something else?

  7. #107

    Re: Christmas

    Quote Originally Posted by truthpaste View Post
    Certainly a lot of froth and intellectual back slapping, nothing new.
    What is your conclusion Sludge? Is Christ a madman, a liar, divine or something else?
    If he existed then he's certainly dead now whether he was a madman a liar or whatever

    As is his old man

  8. #108

    Re: Christmas

    Quote Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY View Post
    If he existed then he's certainly dead now whether he was a madman a liar or whatever

    As is his old man
    So what makes you think they are subject to time like we are?

    And you didn't answer the question.... Jesus asked - "who do you say I am?"

  9. #109

    Re: Christmas

    Quote Originally Posted by truthpaste View Post
    So what makes you think they are subject to time like we are?

    And you didn't answer the question.... Jesus asked - "who do you say I am?"
    Check TBG’s video out.

  10. #110

    Re: Christmas

    Quote Originally Posted by truthpaste View Post
    So what makes you think they are subject to time like we are?

    And you didn't answer the question.... Jesus asked - "who do you say I am?"
    They are time travellers ?

    I like a good debate but come on

    Jesus ?

    First of all if he did exist he was a chilled out hippy that's all

    And how do you know that this bloke called jesus asked anyone anything ?

    The stuff he is supposed to have said was written 200 years after he died

  11. #111

    Re: Christmas

    Quote Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY View Post
    They are time travellers ?

    I like a good debate but come on

    Jesus ?

    First of all if he did exist he was a chilled out hippy that's all

    And how do you know that this bloke called jesus asked anyone anything ?

    The stuff he is supposed to have said was written 200 years after he died
    Be careful his dad is watching 👀

  12. #112

    Re: Christmas

    Quote Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY View Post
    They are time travellers ?

    I like a good debate but come on

    Jesus ?

    First of all if he did exist he was a chilled out hippy that's all

    And how do you know that this bloke called jesus asked anyone anything ?

    The stuff he is supposed to have said was written 200 years after he died
    If you like a GOOD debate then realise that you'll need to bring facts to the table, not your suppositions.

    The Gospels were written in the lifetime of the eye witnesses to ALL His miracles and the things that he said.

    So in the interests of accuracy, would you care to do 5 minutes verification and we can move forward?

  13. #113

    Re: Christmas

    Quote Originally Posted by truthpaste View Post
    If you like a GOOD debate then realise that you'll need to bring facts to the table, not your suppositions.

    The Gospels were written in the lifetime of the eye witnesses to ALL His miracles and the things that he said.

    So in the interests of accuracy, would you care to do 5 minutes verification and we can move forward?
    Bringing in facts. Brave move.

  14. #114

    Re: Christmas

    Quote Originally Posted by truthpaste View Post
    The Gospels were written in the lifetime of the eye witnesses to ALL His miracles and the things that he said.
    just so it's clear, what dates are you using to calculate that? I.e. date range for Jesus's miracles and dates for the writing of all the gospels, as I understand they weren't all written at the same time.

  15. #115

    Re: Christmas

    Facts and accuracy? Good one.
    You go first

  16. #116

    Re: Christmas

    Quote Originally Posted by Canton Kev View Post
    Facts and accuracy? Good one.
    You go first
    No problem, we might have been in the Champions League before Sludge supported his +200 years story!

    The website "Got Questions" (below*) talk about the Gospels and when they were written starting with Matthew.
    If you are familiar with the 24th chapter of that Gospel then you will already know that the writer records the conversation Jesus had with some of His disciples re the destruction of the Temple (in Jerusalem). From our perspective we know that did later happen in AD70, but the writer only records the words of Jesus predicting that it will be witnessed by the same generation that are asking him about it. The writer of the Gospel of Matthew makes no reference to it as a historical event, or that Jesus was correct! Something he certainly would have done if he had written about it AFTER AD70!

    * There are scholars who believe the Gospel of Matthew was written as early as ten to twelve years after the death of Christ. Those who hold to this earlier dating of Matthew believe he first wrote his Gospel in Aramaic, and then it was later translated into Greek. One of the evidences of this earlier dating of Matthew’s Gospel is that early church leaders such as Irenaeus, Origen, and Eusebius recorded that Matthew first wrote his Gospel for Jewish believers while he was still in Israel. In fact Eusebius (a bishop of Caesarea and known as the father of church history) reported that Matthew wrote his Gospel before he left Israel to preach in other lands, which Eusebius says happened about 12 years after the death of Christ. Some scholars believe that this would place the writing of Matthew as early as A.D. 40-45 and as late as A.D. 55.

    Even if the Gospels were not written until 30 years after Christ’s death, that would still place the writing of them prior to the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70. This presents no major problem with their authority or accuracy. Passing on oral traditions and teachings was commonplace in the Jewish culture of that day, and memorization was highly cultivated and practiced. Also, the fact that even at that time there would have been a considerable number of eyewitnesses around to dispute and discredit any false claims, and the fact that none of the “hard sayings” of Jesus were taken from the Gospel accounts, further supports their accuracy. Had the Gospels been edited before being written down, as some liberal scholars contend, then it was a very poor job. The writers left far too many “hard sayings,” and culturally unacceptable and politically incorrect accounts that would need explaining. An example of this is that the first witnesses of the resurrection were women, who were not considered reliable witnesses in the culture of that day.

  17. #117

    Re: Christmas

    Quote Originally Posted by Canton Kev View Post
    And neither do I. I’ve not denied his existence, so try answering my actual questions. Should precision matter? If you’re going to put unwavering faith in a higher being then yes I think so. If the simple event such as Jesus’ birth can’t be accurately confirmed or agreed upon then surely the less believable miracles are thrown into doubt?
    Of course precision matters where precision matters. I have a PhD in a scientific discipline so I am well aware of that. However here we are discussing the life and times of a person who lived just over two thousand years ago, not some sort of scientific experiment! I suspect we both know that hair-splitting arguments about exactly when said person was born (plus or minus a year or two) are merely deflective tactics which attempt to stifle further debate.

    With regards miracles etc – of course I have no proof in the scientific sense as we only have the writings of the New Testament. If you want to believe that these are invented fairy stories then that is your choice of course. I prefer to believe that these are actual eye witness accounts which were written down some years after the events in the same way, as for example, the personal memories of WW2 veterans that were recorded many years after the actual events. Many of these personal stories (as opposed to the large scale military events such as D-Day for example, which are well-documented in photographs or film archives) cannot be verified because the men they fought alongside either died during the war or in the interim. Would you dismiss their accounts on the basis that what they say cannot be independently verified? My Dad never spoke much about his WW2 experiences but what he did say I had no reason to disbelieve although he had no “evidence” that any of it was true.

  18. #118

    Re: Christmas

    There's a lot more evidence of events surrounding the personal memories to back them up though. I don't think the two can really be equated. Also the fact there was no magic during used during WW2 makes it a but easier to believe.

  19. #119

    Re: Christmas

    This notion that the Gospels were written hundreds of years after the events is quite a common negative argument but as Truthpaste says is not correct for the reasons he has given. I realise this will not have any bearing on this discussion as clearly the majority of contributors are firmly entrenched in their own agnostic/atheistic positions and not open to re-examining their thinking. I know I will be accused of exactly the same attitude but the big difference being is that once I held a similar “anti” stance too!
    I can't help but keep coming back to my main mantra – the question “why”? Why would the early followers of Jesus invent such things? What was in it for them other than torture and execution and being burnt alive for the pleasure of the Roman Emperor Nero? No their lives were dramatically changed because of what they had witnessed and they could see that this was a new way to live – in fact the early Christians were called followers of “the way”. That is the “way” I have chosen to follow and so glad that I did.

    I did not accept Jesus until I was in my late 30's and my life/lifestyle changed. Unlike some other folk on this forum who apparently must have been born with an altruistic mentality, I was not one of them. I recognised that I fell way short of what Jesus would expect and I changed. I am not a saint but a work-in-progress. The latter part of my life has been spent volunteering in helping the less fortunate in many different ways, home and abroad. I will not go into details as that would come over as boastful (“As for me, may I never boast about anything except the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ. Because of that cross, my interest in this world has been crucified, and the world’s interest in me has also died”. Galatians 6:14).

    Do I ever have doubts – yes I do but I am comforted by the words of Jesus (to doubting Thomas): “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.” John 20:29.

  20. #120

    Re: Christmas

    If it has such a positive affect on your life I don't think the realness matters at all anyway, just keep enjoying it yourself and don't worry what others think as it is one of those topics that no one will ever change their mind over.

    I think if religion had that same effect on everyone no one would be as bothered by it, it's more the negative aspects of religion that have become more obvious that make people so against it.

  21. #121

    Re: Christmas

    Quote Originally Posted by Croesy Blue View Post
    If it has such a positive affect on your life I don't think the realness matters at all anyway, just keep enjoying it yourself and don't worry what others think as it is one of those topics that no one will ever change their mind over.

    I think if religion had that same effect on everyone no one would be as bothered by it, it's more the negative aspects of religion that have become more obvious that make people so against it.
    If by the negative aspects I wonder if you mean that accepting Christianity may cause you to have to make some changes in your personal life/behaviour, which of course is anathema in modern society, then yes I'm afraid it does! I happen to believe that Christianity is a powerful force for good in the world. Unfortunately Christians are still human and therefore by definition are somewhat less than perfect people, but of course we also are very aware that we aren't! The snag is, as G.K. Chesterton wrote: Christianity has not been tried and found wanting. It has been found to be too difficult and left untried.” !

  22. #122

    Re: Christmas

    Quote Originally Posted by Gofer Blue View Post
    Of course precision matters where precision matters. I have a PhD in a scientific discipline so I am well aware of that. However here we are discussing the life and times of a person who lived just over two thousand years ago, not some sort of scientific experiment! I suspect we both know that hair-splitting arguments about exactly when said person was born (plus or minus a year or two) are merely deflective tactics which attempt to stifle further debate.

    With regards miracles etc – of course I have no proof in the scientific sense as we only have the writings of the New Testament. If you want to believe that these are invented fairy stories then that is your choice of course. I prefer to believe that these are actual eye witness accounts which were written down some years after the events in the same way, as for example, the personal memories of WW2 veterans that were recorded many years after the actual events. Many of these personal stories (as opposed to the large scale military events such as D-Day for example, which are well-documented in photographs or film archives) cannot be verified because the men they fought alongside either died during the war or in the interim. Would you dismiss their accounts on the basis that what they say cannot be independently verified? My Dad never spoke much about his WW2 experiences but what he did say I had no reason to disbelieve although he had no “evidence” that any of it was true.

    I guess if your dad said he chatted to a snake or fed 5,000 people with five quid of shopping then you might question him...

  23. #123

    Re: Christmas

    Quote Originally Posted by lardy View Post
    I guess if your dad said he chatted to a snake or fed 5,000 people with five quid of shopping then you might question him...
    Nah, I always believed my Dad!

  24. #124

    Re: Christmas

    Quote Originally Posted by Gofer Blue View Post
    Nah, I always believed my Dad!
    Fair play

  25. #125
    International jon1959's Avatar
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    Re: Christmas

    Quote Originally Posted by Croesy Blue View Post
    There's a lot more evidence of events surrounding the personal memories to back them up though. I don't think the two can really be equated. Also the fact there was no magic during used during WW2 makes it a but easier to believe.
    All true but memories are imperfect. People see only part of the picture and fill in the gaps in their minds. Eye witness accounts often contradict each other - even around a single incident in the High Street. Preconceptions affect recollection - we sometimes see what we expect or want to see....

    Also in modern times there have been millions of people who think they have seen ghosts, spirits (very popular in late 19th century Europe - all a total scam), aliens, missing people (after any police appeal), monsters and shape shifters. Some people are wired or conditioned to believe in the supernatural - more comfortable with fantasy than fact.

    Believers believe. Non-believers don't. We have different frames of reference and different language. We can maybe sensibly discuss some of the sparse and fragmentary historical record about a Jewish holy man known by the anglicised name Jesus - at least birth, death and a few events involving money lenders, but when it comes to magic it will become a dialogue of the deaf.

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