Christmas

[truthpaste]

Facts and accuracy? Good one.
You go first

No problem, we might have been in the Champions League before Sludge supported his +200 years story!

The website "Got Questions" (below*) talk about the Gospels and when they were written starting with Matthew.
If you are familiar with the 24th chapter of that Gospel then you will already know that the writer records the conversation Jesus had with some of His disciples re the destruction of the Temple (in Jerusalem). From our perspective we know that did later happen in AD70, but the writer only records the words of Jesus predicting that it will be witnessed by the same generation that are asking him about it. The writer of the Gospel of Matthew makes no reference to it as a historical event, or that Jesus was correct! Something he certainly would have done if he had written about it AFTER AD70!

* There are scholars who believe the Gospel of Matthew was written as early as ten to twelve years after the death of Christ. Those who hold to this earlier dating of Matthew believe he first wrote his Gospel in Aramaic, and then it was later translated into Greek. One of the evidences of this earlier dating of Matthew’s Gospel is that early church leaders such as Irenaeus, Origen, and Eusebius recorded that Matthew first wrote his Gospel for Jewish believers while he was still in Israel. In fact Eusebius (a bishop of Caesarea and known as the father of church history) reported that Matthew wrote his Gospel before he left Israel to preach in other lands, which Eusebius says happened about 12 years after the death of Christ. Some scholars believe that this would place the writing of Matthew as early as A.D. 40-45 and as late as A.D. 55.

Even if the Gospels were not written until 30 years after Christ’s death, that would still place the writing of them prior to the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70. This presents no major problem with their authority or accuracy. Passing on oral traditions and teachings was commonplace in the Jewish culture of that day, and memorization was highly cultivated and practiced. Also, the fact that even at that time there would have been a considerable number of eyewitnesses around to dispute and discredit any false claims, and the fact that none of the “hard sayings” of Jesus were taken from the Gospel accounts, further supports their accuracy. Had the Gospels been edited before being written down, as some liberal scholars contend, then it was a very poor job. The writers left far too many “hard sayings,” and culturally unacceptable and politically incorrect accounts that would need explaining. An example of this is that the first witnesses of the resurrection were women, who were not considered reliable witnesses in the culture of that day.

[life on mars]

They are time travellers ?

I like a good debate but come on

Jesus ?

First of all if he did exist he was a chilled out hippy that's all

And how do you know that this bloke called jesus asked anyone anything ?

The stuff he is supposed to have said was written 200 years after he died

Be careful his dad is watching 👀

[Croesy Blue]

There's a lot more evidence of events surrounding the personal memories to back them up though. I don't think the two can really be equated. Also the fact there was no magic during used during WW2 makes it a but easier to believe.

[Gofer Blue]

This notion that the Gospels were written hundreds of years after the events is quite a common negative argument but as Truthpaste says is not correct for the reasons he has given. I realise this will not have any bearing on this discussion as clearly the majority of contributors are firmly entrenched in their own agnostic/atheistic positions and not open to re-examining their thinking. I know I will be accused of exactly the same attitude but the big difference being is that once I held a similar “anti” stance too!
I can't help but keep coming back to my main mantra – the question “why”? Why would the early followers of Jesus invent such things? What was in it for them other than torture and execution and being burnt alive for the pleasure of the Roman Emperor Nero? No their lives were dramatically changed because of what they had witnessed and they could see that this was a new way to live – in fact the early Christians were called followers of “the way”. That is the “way” I have chosen to follow and so glad that I did.

I did not accept Jesus until I was in my late 30's and my life/lifestyle changed. Unlike some other folk on this forum who apparently must have been born with an altruistic mentality, I was not one of them. I recognised that I fell way short of what Jesus would expect and I changed. I am not a saint but a work-in-progress. The latter part of my life has been spent volunteering in helping the less fortunate in many different ways, home and abroad. I will not go into details as that would come over as boastful (“As for me, may I never boast about anything except the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ. Because of that cross, my interest in this world has been crucified, and the world’s interest in me has also died”. Galatians 6:14).

Do I ever have doubts – yes I do but I am comforted by the words of Jesus (to doubting Thomas): “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.” John 20:29.

[jon1959]

There's a lot more evidence of events surrounding the personal memories to back them up though. I don't think the two can really be equated. Also the fact there was no magic during used during WW2 makes it a but easier to believe.

All true but memories are imperfect. People see only part of the picture and fill in the gaps in their minds. Eye witness accounts often contradict each other - even around a single incident in the High Street. Preconceptions affect recollection - we sometimes see what we expect or want to see....

Also in modern times there have been millions of people who think they have seen ghosts, spirits (very popular in late 19th century Europe - all a total scam), aliens, missing people (after any police appeal), monsters and shape shifters. Some people are wired or conditioned to believe in the supernatural - more comfortable with fantasy than fact.

Believers believe. Non-believers don't. We have different frames of reference and different language. We can maybe sensibly discuss some of the sparse and fragmentary historical record about a Jewish holy man known by the anglicised name Jesus - at least birth, death and a few events involving money lenders, but when it comes to magic it will become a dialogue of the deaf.

[Baloo]

Believers believe. Non-believers don't. We have different frames of reference and different language.

I think everybody's probably put their best arguments forward in multiple threads now and I'd be amazed if anybody's beliefs, or non-beliefs, have changed one iota. The difference in outlook and values is really just too big to make much sense of the alternative view. Doesn't meant we can't just accept people think differently of course.

[blue matt]

Doesn't meant we can't just accept people think differently of course.

thats not how it works on CCMB I am afraid, if someone has a different opinion they just get shouted down again and again and again

Ref Religion, I really dont get the issue, if someone believes in something / someone and is doing you no harm, just leave them be, let them get on with what they believe or are doing, it doesn't impact your life, leave them to it

They might even be using the belief they have to do some good, the Christmas shoebox appeal is one current good thing that is going on ( yes we know that certain religious groups use them to encourage children to attend church in some countries )
Harvest festival donations is another one, that food is given to families in need, my local church has a " community food bank " you drop off anything you want to donate, the door is always open incase people need anything

[Gofer Blue]

They might even be using the belief they have to do some good

Show me a Christian who doesn't and I would question their Christianity! Faith without works is dead etc.

[Gofer Blue]

I think everybody's probably put their best arguments forward in multiple threads now and I'd be amazed if anybody's beliefs, or non-beliefs, have changed one iota. The difference in outlook and values is really just too big to make much sense of the alternative view. Doesn't meant we can't just accept people think differently of course.

Actually I quite enjoy the cut and thrust of these threads as I am never afraid to have my faith challenged. It causes me to pause and ponder some of the points raised. The YouTube video recommended by TBG (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LTllC7TbM8M) is interesting, a bit long (!) and would take an age to investigate every claim in it but quite thought provoking. For me the presenter in the video still hasn't answered my eternal question "why" apart from his suggestion that the number of Christians was declining by 100AD so it needed a boost and some new "stuff" was written to con the masses into belief. Uhm, odd that, when you know that the epistles and the gospels were written well before then. Still, a possible hypothesis I suppose.

I think he is correct in saying that Christianity then was more about politics rather than religion as far as the Romans were concerned and Christians were seen as a threat to the "system". It is no wonder there weren't many Christians around by then as probably most were in hiding (again being seen as a threat as they held "secret" meetings indoors) or had been slaughtered by Nero and his mates.

[blue matt]

Actually I quite enjoy the cut and thrust of these threads as I am never afraid to have my faith challenged. It causes me to pause and ponder some of the points raised. The YouTube video recommended by TBG (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LTllC7TbM8M) is interesting, a bit long (!) and would take an age to investigate every claim in it but quite thought provoking. For me the presenter in the video still hasn't answered my eternal question "why" apart from his suggestion that the number of Christians was declining by 100AD so it needed a boost and some new "stuff" was written to con the masses into belief. Uhm, odd that, when you know that the epistles and the gospels were written well before then. Still, a possible hypothesis I suppose.

I think he is correct in saying that Christianity then was more about politics rather than religion as far as the Romans were concerned and Christians were seen as a threat to the "system". It is no wonder there weren't many Christians around by then as probably most were in hiding (again being seen as a threat as they held "secret" meetings indoors) or had been slaughtered by Nero and his mates.

Good for you

We always used to have issues with Religious threads, they always descended into name calling and abuse
Ive followed this one and its not been too bad

as will any thread, if you feel its overstepped the mark, let us know either by IM or " report this post " ( or whatever its called )

[Croesy Blue]

If it has such a positive affect on your life I don't think the realness matters at all anyway, just keep enjoying it yourself and don't worry what others think as it is one of those topics that no one will ever change their mind over.

I think if religion had that same effect on everyone no one would be as bothered by it, it's more the negative aspects of religion that have become more obvious that make people so against it.

[Gofer Blue]

If it has such a positive affect on your life I don't think the realness matters at all anyway, just keep enjoying it yourself and don't worry what others think as it is one of those topics that no one will ever change their mind over.

I think if religion had that same effect on everyone no one would be as bothered by it, it's more the negative aspects of religion that have become more obvious that make people so against it.

If by the negative aspects I wonder if you mean that accepting Christianity may cause you to have to make some changes in your personal life/behaviour, which of course is anathema in modern society, then yes I'm afraid it does! I happen to believe that Christianity is a powerful force for good in the world. Unfortunately Christians are still human and therefore by definition are somewhat less than perfect people, but of course we also are very aware that we aren't! The snag is, as G.K. Chesterton wrote: Christianity has not been tried and found wanting. It has been found to be too difficult and left untried.” !

[truthpaste]

If it has such a positive affect on your life I don't think the realness matters at all anyway, just keep enjoying it yourself and don't worry what others think as it is one of those topics that no one will ever change their mind over.

I think if religion had that same effect on everyone no one would be as bothered by it, it's more the negative aspects of religion that have become more obvious that make people so against it.

I understand that, however what gofer blue and myself have isn't a dry, boring, negative, dated and irrelevant religion; it's vibrant, relevant and as up to date as ever relationship with a God who has never let us down (and I am saying that knowing what all genuine Christians would say, not having consulted Gofer Blue, he can either confirm this or otherwise).

So in short, we have no negative aspects, because our faith isn't IN religion.

[Croesy Blue]

I understand that, however what gofer blue and myself have isn't a dry, boring, negative, dated and irrelevant religion; it's vibrant, relevant and as up to date as ever relationship with a God who has never let us down (and I am saying that knowing what all genuine Christians would say, not having consulted Gofer Blue, he can either confirm this or otherwise).

So in short, we have no negative aspects, because our faith isn't IN religion.

It's also used to control vulnerable people and take advantage of them and used to judge other people's lifestyles. That's what people don't like about it.

[truthpaste]

It's also used to control vulnerable people and take advantage of them and used to judge other people's lifestyles. That's what people don't like about it.

Then why do you insist in talking at cross purposes?

This conversation is as logical as -

A: "hey would you like a couple of free tickets to Saturday's game?"

B: "why would I want to mix with a bunch of thugs? Isn't it true that some people have been injured or killed by following football?"

[Gofer Blue]

It's also used to control vulnerable people and take advantage of them and used to judge other people's lifestyles. That's what people don't like about it.

The short answers are:

1. Christianity has nothing to do with "control" of the masses, vulnerable or otherwise. I would be more worried about Google in that regard than Christians! I think you will find Truthpaste and I both agree that we do not regard Christianity as a "religion" in that sense of the word. Religion to me is the strict observance of a set of rules like boxes to be ticked and lots of mandatory good works to be carried out before I snuff it. Not for me thanks.

2. Christians do not judge. We may have opinions but only God judges.

[az city]

I understand that, however what gofer blue and myself have isn't a dry, boring, negative, dated and irrelevant religion; it's vibrant, relevant and as up to date as ever relationship with a God who has never let us down (and I am saying that knowing what all genuine Christians would say, not having consulted Gofer Blue, he can either confirm this or otherwise).

So in short, we have no negative aspects, because our faith isn't IN religion.

Your "god" has never let you down? I find that very, very hard to believe. Why did she not intervene with Covid-19? Or Hitler? Or ISIS? Or Mick McCarthy? Or that fake Chelsea equalizer?

From my viewpoint your god's a complete blow-hard wastrel.

[Taunton Blue Genie]

I think I'll give up on these religious 'debates'. A great many people who are indoctrinated as children will believe the most ridiculous tosh for which there is absolutely zero evidence. The following are just a miniscule proportion of the ludicrous stories that people swallow whole. The list could go on and on and rational debate is impossible with people who believe it all.

A talking snake
Virgin birth
Noah being 500 years old when he built the Ark
David presenting the foreskins of 200 victims in order to marry the king's daughter
God making a donkey have the power of speech
Creatures with wings and four faces
Moses banishing people with damaged testicles offering food at the temple
Lot offering his daughters to be raped to save two angels being raped
Lot's daughter getting their father drunk to have sex with him
Human-God hybrids
God punishing Nebuchadnezzar by making him live in the fields as a cow for 7 seasons
Jonah being rescued by living in a fish for 3 days
God sparing Moses from death after the latter's wife cuts their child's foreskin and applies the blood to Moses' feet

Oh yeah, God created a miracle by raising the ground under the feet of St David so that the crowd could see him but chose not to intervene during the holocaust. It's an insult to one's intelligence, it really is.

[Gofer Blue]

I think I'll give up on these religious 'debates'. A great many people who are indoctrinated as children will believe the most ridiculous tosh for which there is absolutely zero evidence. The following are just a miniscule proportion of the ludicrous stories that people swallow whole. The list could go on and on and rational debate is impossible with people who believe it all.

A talking snake
Virgin birth
Noah being 500 years old when he built the Ark
David presenting the foreskins of 200 victims in order to marry the king's daughter
God making a donkey have the power of speech
Creatures with wings and four faces
Moses banishing people with damaged testicles offering food at the temple
Lot offering his daughters to be raped to save two angels being raped
Lot's daughter getting their father drunk to have sex with him
Human-God hybrids
God punishing Nebuchadnezzar by making him live in the fields as a cow for 7 seasons
Jonah being rescued by living in a fish for 3 days
God sparing Moses from death after the latter's wife cuts their child's foreskin and applies the blood to Moses' feet

Oh yeah, God created a miracle by raising the ground under the feet of St David so that the crowd could see him but chose not to intervene during the holocaust. It's an insult to one's intelligence, it really is.

Regarding indoctrinated children. Children tend to grow into adults don't they and make their own minds up? I rejected Christianity in my teens because of the hypocrisy I witnessed among some “Christians” plus I thought science had all the answers.

You are right, the early Jews certainly had some strange notions/customs/events it seems and I cannot explain them all. Thankfully Jesus speaks about the new covenant and it is he that I choose to follow. Without Jesus I would find it difficult to believe in God as the one sometimes portrayed in the Old Testament. I would say that Jesus is far more concerned with matters of the human condition, how a person thinks and lives, and having a personal relationship with him, not whether they believe in every detail in the Old Testament. I am content with the knowledge that the books therein point to the coming of a Messiah and the prophesies about Jesus, all of which have been fulfilled so far, bar the second coming.

Let's suppose you and others are right, I am completely deluded, and the whole thing is indeed a load of baloney. All I can say is I was glad I chose to follow the Jesus way, tried to be a good witness for him, and hopefully played some (minuscule) part in leaving the world in a slightly better shape for having been here. It's a shame that more people do not accept Jesus, even if just for his teachings alone, the world would be a much better place IMO.

This may now be a good time for me to bow out gracefully from this thread. You and others on here know where I stand, there is no more to be said. Feel free to ridicule me in my absence!

Let this verse have the last say: "Most importantly, I want to remind you that in the last days scoffers will come, mocking the truth and following their own desires". 2 Peter 3:3.

[truthpaste]

I think I'll give up on these religious 'debates'. A great many people who are indoctrinated as children will believe the most ridiculous tosh for which there is absolutely zero evidence. The following are just a miniscule proportion of the ludicrous stories that people swallow whole. The list could go on and on and rational debate is impossible with people who believe it all.

A talking snake
Virgin birth
Noah being 500 years old when he built the Ark
David presenting the foreskins of 200 victims in order to marry the king's daughter
God making a donkey have the power of speech
Creatures with wings and four faces
Moses banishing people with damaged testicles offering food at the temple
Lot offering his daughters to be raped to save two angels being raped
Lot's daughter getting their father drunk to have sex with him
Human-God hybrids
God punishing Nebuchadnezzar by making him live in the fields as a cow for 7 seasons
Jonah being rescued by living in a fish for 3 days
God sparing Moses from death after the latter's wife cuts their child's foreskin and applies the blood to Moses' feet

Oh yeah, God created a miracle by raising the ground under the feet of St David so that the crowd could see him but chose not to intervene during the holocaust. It's an insult to one's intelligence, it really is.

Yes, you'd need to be almighty to do ALL of those things!

[tforturton]

Anyone got any idea what I can get my mother for Christmas?

A radical idea - why not just ask her if there's anything she'd like, then buy her the very best version of it?

[Croesy Blue]

Then why do you insist in talking at cross purposes

It’s funny.

Also I think I’ve posted twice in this thread and I think for me I’ve been quite polite

[truthpaste]

It’s funny.

Also I think I’ve posted twice in this thread and I think for me I’ve been quite polite

I hadn't suggested that you'd been rude, just that you'd chosen to remain unengaged from what was actually being said by making a false assumption that we were talking about dead religion, which is utterly useless as Gofer has just confirmed in his latest post.

[life on mars]

Anyone got any idea what I can get my mother for Christmas?

Hearty meal surrounded by family and love oh and a lovely bottle of Warnink's Advocaat

[Gofer Blue]

Anyone got any idea what I can get my mother for Christmas?

I came into this thread a bit late so have not replied to the OP (who has probably given up and gone away by now )

I don't know how old your mother is or her circumstances but if she is my age (70+) then I would say she wants nothing other than to know that her son still loves and cares for her.