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Thread: care costs

  1. #1

    care costs

    20211123_091720.jpg

    this seems very fair

  2. #2

    Re: care costs

    LIAR, CORRUPT JOHNSON at it again.

    And donít get me started on the clowns speech yesterday, all to detract from this.

    The Toryís never, ever change their spots. Wake up!

  3. #3

    Re: care costs

    Thank god we live in Wales where we look to be at least trying to do thr opposite. If you voted for these tory crooks you are a fool.

  4. #4

    Re: care costs

    An article on well worth reading on the growing care costs in Wales

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-51357547

    There are thresholds and caps in Wales .

    Before we get all excited one fact maybe worth considering in that Wales has an ageing population.

    2008 : 18 per cent of the population was over 65
    By 2033 this is expected to rise to almost 26 per cent.

    A tax rise of between 1% to 3%

    Gething suggests cost is predicted to grow between £30m and £300m by 2023.

  5. #5

    Re: care costs

    Quote Originally Posted by ninian opinian View Post
    LIAR, CORRUPT JOHNSON at it again.

    And donít get me started on the clowns speech yesterday, all to detract from this.

    The Toryís never, ever change their spots. Wake up!
    The proposed system is vastly vastly superior than what currently exists or what existed under the last Labour govt.

    Perfect, no? But you should be able to consider it rationally without such extreme conclusions

  6. #6

    Re: care costs

    Quote Originally Posted by JamesWales View Post
    The proposed system is vastly vastly superior than what currently exists or what existed under the last Labour govt.

    Perfect, no? But you should be able to consider it rationally without such extreme conclusions
    Comparisons with previous Governments become increasingly pointless as the years pass, the longer one party has been in power, the more irrelevant the previous Government becomes. A Tory MP trying to hold the last Labour Government to account in 1996 for a problem of that time would sound ridiculous because their party had been in power for seventeen years and the same applies the other way round when Labour had been in power for twelve years in 2009. After eleven years of the Conservatives in charge, we’re in the same position again - the world has changed a lot since 2010.

  7. #7

    Re: care costs

    Quote Originally Posted by JamesWales View Post
    The proposed system is vastly vastly superior than what currently exists or what existed under the last Labour govt.

    Perfect, no? But you should be able to consider it rationally without such extreme conclusions
    No one is ever rational when it comes to the matters of social care , health care , education, policing etc etc, nothing is ever going to be enough as it's a political point scoring exercise, if there was a balanced funding policy to all this funding surely a political party would be voted back in power over and over again ( hang on) ?

    Equally if thier policies were dreadful they'd be voted out ??

  8. #8

    Re: care costs

    Quote Originally Posted by life on mars View Post

    Equally if thier policies were dreadful they'd be voted out ??
    Lol not when you have the entire UK media telling you they're good policies..

  9. #9

    Re: care costs

    Quote Originally Posted by the other bob wilson View Post
    Comparisons with previous Governments become increasingly pointless as the years pass, the longer one party has been in power, the more irrelevant the previous Government becomes. A Tory MP trying to hold the last Labour Government to account in 1996 for a problem of that time would sound ridiculous because their party had been in power for seventeen years and the same applies the other way round when Labour had been in power for twelve years in 2009. After eleven years of the Conservatives in charge, weíre in the same position again - the world has changed a lot since 2010.
    I agree really, the world keeps turning, but the proposals represent a sea change, it's entirely positive and transformative for those with less wealth.

    The graph shown is fairly. Of course those who have a million in the bank will still be better off after spending the same amount on care than someone with less. You'd have to be a communist to think we should all leave this earth with the exact same sum in the bank.

    As stated, these changes are positive and I'm increasingly tired of party political games over everything.

  10. #10

    Re: care costs

    Quote Originally Posted by Doucas View Post
    Lol not when you have the entire UK media telling you they're good policies..
    I think normal people in the street are not fully controlled by the media as some think , one would know if they were suffering and feeling injustices were applied to them , media control its an old favourite narrative but a dated one , political popularity and success is more to do with being in touch with the working / middle class thinking and tapping into that , even if we don't support or believe in it .

  11. #11

    Re: care costs

    Quote Originally Posted by JamesWales View Post
    The proposed system is vastly vastly superior than what currently exists or what existed under the last Labour govt.

    Perfect, no? But you should be able to consider it rationally without such extreme conclusions
    If you wanted a rational conversation about this you would have skimmed over that comment and replied to the OP. That graphic is pretty damning and I was interested that the BBC ran with something so honest.

  12. #12

    Re: care costs

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Cartman View Post
    If you wanted a rational conversation about this you would have skimmed over that comment and replied to the OP. That graphic is pretty damning and I was interested that the BBC ran with something so honest.
    It's not damning at all. Care costs broadly the same. It's like saying that if a holiday costs £1000 and you only have a £5000 in the bank then the holiday uses up a fifth of your income but if you have £100,000 in the bank it uses up 1%

    Well no ****ing shit. That's not evil, that's not Tory scum stuff, that's the real world. You somehow want wealthier people to be charged £1000 a day for care instead of £100 so they all end up with nothing? What is it you want?

    The fact is, before, poorer people could lose nearly everything, now they don't. Problem is the kind of people who produce this far-left guff are typically so bloody middle class nowadays, so absent from economic reality that they have no idea what happens on the ground and thus think graphics like that are damning.

    Does my head in.

  13. #13

    Re: care costs

    Quote Originally Posted by life on mars View Post
    I think normal people in the street are not fully controlled by the media as some think , one would know if they were suffering and feeling injustices were applied to them , media control its an old favourite narrative but a dated one , political popularity and success is more to do with being in touch with the working / middle class thinking and tapping into that , even if we don't support or believe in it .
    What else could explain why people would possibly have a different opinion to Doucus other than the fact that they are inherently stupid and unable to think for themselves and are totally controlled by the media though?

    Obviously he is immune to it, but everyone else...completely controlled!

  14. #14

    Re: care costs

    Quote Originally Posted by life on mars View Post
    I think normal people in the street are not fully controlled by the media as some think , one would know if they were suffering and feeling injustices were applied to them , media control its an old favourite narrative but a dated one , political popularity and success is more to do with being in touch with the working / middle class thinking and tapping into that , even if we don't support or believe in it .
    Not so sure about that. The amount of people who repeat verbatim slogans, headlines and sound bites when asked their opinion is not a coincidence.

  15. #15

    Re: care costs

    Quote Originally Posted by JamesWales View Post
    It's not damning at all. Care costs broadly the same. It's like saying that if a holiday costs £1000 and you only have a £5000 in the bank then the holiday uses up a fifth of your income but if you have £100,000 in the bank it uses up 1%

    Well no ****ing shit. That's not evil, that's not Tory scum stuff, that's the real world. You somehow want wealthier people to be charged £1000 a day for care instead of £100 so they all end up with nothing? What is it you want?

    The fact is, before, poorer people could lose nearly everything, now they don't. Problem is the kind of people who produce this far-left guff are typically so bloody middle class nowadays, so absent from economic reality that they have no idea what happens on the ground and thus think graphics like that are damning.

    Does my head in.
    Typically rational and well thought out response.

    Does a wealthy person pay more for their child's state education than a poorer person, does a wealthy person pay for more their NHS care than a poorer person, does a wealthy person pay more for policing in their area compared to a poorer person. Do I need to go on?

    With this system we will have a progressive system of taxation for healthcare until you reach old age when effectively (for the vast majority) a flat tax kicks in. It is clear that governments of the UK are not keen to tax accumulated wealth in the way they do income, this is driven by lord knows what but isnt sustainable given current economic patterns and therefore is entirely irrational.

  16. #16

    Re: care costs

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Cartman View Post
    Typically rational and well thought out response.

    Does a wealthy person pay more for their child's state education than a poorer person, does a wealthy person pay for more their NHS care than a poorer person, does a wealthy person pay more for policing in their area compared to a poorer person. Do I need to go on?

    With this system we will have a progressive system of taxation for healthcare until you reach old age when effectively (for the vast majority) a flat tax kicks in. It is clear that governments of the UK are not keen to tax accumulated wealth in the way they do income, this is driven by lord knows what but isnt sustainable given current economic patterns and therefore is entirely irrational.
    Sorry your response is flawed because the original graphic is flawed

    The aim of the change to care costs is to create a sustainable means of caring for people in older age and ensure no one is left destitute. If you have no money or assets well below £100,000 you WILL pay far LESS than a wealthy person.

    This graphic picks the figure of £100,000 precisely to enrage you. It's the political BBC at its worst. Why doesn't it show someone with £30,000 in assets? Or £1 in assets ? It is they who benefit most from this.

    Or would you rather the person on £100,000 in assets pay nothing until the person with £500,000 has seen theirs reduced to the same amount? Let me tell you, you'll never see that money because no child will see their parents life work be spent on someone else for nothing.

    Would you? A terraced house in North Cardiff can cost £350,000. You happy for your parent to give it all away so the person in a £100,000 house in Merthyr doesn't have to?

    The money will disappear and the system will fail.

    This new plan ensures care be paid for and people will be left with something to pass on to their kids. It's the best way of paying for elderly care in hundreds of years. Perfect no, but you come up with a better system.

  17. #17

    Re: care costs

    Quote Originally Posted by JamesWales View Post
    Sorry your response is flawed because the original graphic is flawed

    The aim of the change to care costs is to create a sustainable means of caring for people in older age and ensure no one is left destitute. If you have no money or assets well below £100,000 you WILL pay far LESS than a wealthy person.

    This graphic picks the figure of £100,000 precisely to enrage you. It's the political BBC at its worst. Why doesn't it show someone with £30,000 in assets? Or £1 in assets ? It is they who benefit most from this.

    Or would you rather the person on £100,000 in assets pay nothing until the person with £500,000 has seen theirs reduced to the same amount? Let me tell you, you'll never see that money because no child will see their parents life work be spent on someone else for nothing.

    Would you? A terraced house in North Cardiff can cost £350,000. You happy for your parent to give it all away so the person in a £100,000 house in Merthyr doesn't have to?

    The money will disappear and the system will fail.

    This new plan ensures care be paid for and people will be left with something to pass on to their kids. It's the best way of paying for elderly care in hundreds of years. Perfect no, but you come up with a better system.
    Maybe you can answer in good faith for once and explain how my post is 'flawed'.

    I will answer your points so that this thread doesn't turn into two people barking their own monologues, you should probably do the same.

    This graphic picks the figure of £100,000 precisely to enrage you. It's the political BBC at its worst. Why doesn't it show someone with £30,000 in assets? Or £1 in assets ? It is they who benefit most from this.
    Somewhat fair point, but then again it doesn't show the higher end of the wealth bell curve either. Is it political for them not to show how millionaires fair under the system too? I'd imagine in 2021, the groups are actually pretty similar in size.

    Could we possibly have protected the poorest without protecting millionaires at the same time? I can't see why not, maybe you can tell me why not.

    Would you? A terraced house in North Cardiff can cost £350,000. You happy for your parent to give it all away so the person in a £100,000 house in Merthyr doesn't have to?
    In short yes (and your example describes my parents situation quite well in terms of their level of property wealth).

    What this policy effectively says is a person should pay a maximum of 86000 for their own care regardless of wealth and from then, other forms of taxation will be used to pay for it. I don't agree with the principle of an absolute cap/flat rate and I dont agree that working people who are struggling should prop up somebody who is well off by paying for their care so that they can pass their house on to their 50+ year old children when they die.

    Or would you rather the person on £100,000 in assets pay nothing until the person with £500,000 has seen theirs reduced to the same amount? Let me tell you, you'll never see that money because no child will see their parents life work be spent on someone else for nothing
    If your 'lifes work' is accruing property wealth then I feel sorry for you. The point doesn't really add up anyway. We live in a country where the majority of people are taxed quite heavily on earned income (even more so because of these reforms). We will pay for care somehow and shielding people with wealth from paying for their own, just means somebody else has to pay for it, it comes out of another pot.

    You can talk about this proposal being sustainable but that depends on so many different factors that it is complete guess work at this point. What isnt guess work is that the property wealth amongst the old age groups is climbing and wages are mostly not rising in line with inflation. Unchecked, that itself puts pressures on our economic model, we probably need to find fair ways to access that wealth in order to ease the tax burden on working people.

  18. #18

    Re: care costs

    Thanks for the response. I genuinely suspect that like a lot of activists you don't actually want a solution though, as it would prevent an opportunity for a political argument.

    This isn't perfect but it is the best system for hundreds of years and vastly better for those with low levels of wealth. (Again, bafflingly that post now decides for the benefit of the graphic that the poorest are people with £100,000 in assets!)

    Your starting point really should be more amicable towards the proposals in my opinion. It's just party politics that prevents you doing that. Free yourself of that burden!

    Or at least outline properly an alternative, so people can pick holes in that.

    This is a pretty good summary atm
    https://order-order.com/2021/11/23/l...d-social-care/

  19. #19

    Re: care costs

    Quote Originally Posted by JamesWales View Post
    Thanks for the response. I genuinely suspect that like a lot of activists you don't actually want a solution though, as it would prevent an opportunity for a political argument.

    This isn't perfect but it is the best system for hundreds of years and vastly better for those with low levels of wealth. (Again, bafflingly that post now decides for the benefit of the graphic that the poorest are people with £100,000 in assets!)

    Your starting point really should be more amicable towards the proposals in my opinion. It's just party politics that prevents you doing that. Free yourself of that burden!

    Or at least outline properly an alternative, so people can pick holes in that.

    This is a pretty good summary atm
    https://order-order.com/2021/11/23/l...d-social-care/
    Or indeed that the richest only have 500k??

    I don't even know where to start with your post but how about this, if you are going to denounce party politics, maybe don't back that up by posting a party political article from a well known biased internet shit rag. Plenty of conservative MPs couldn't bring themselves to vote for the bill, if you wanted to not be party political you could ask them why they chose that route.

    Your assumptions about me are completely wrong, notice how I haven't made any assumptions about you or your motivations.

  20. #20

    Re: care costs

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Cartman View Post
    Or indeed that the richest only have 500k??

    I don't even know where to start with your post but how about this, if you are going to denounce party politics, maybe don't back that up by posting a party political article from a well known biased internet shit rag. Plenty of conservative MPs couldn't bring themselves to vote for the bill, if you wanted to not be party political you could ask them why they chose that route.

    Your assumptions about me are completely wrong, notice how I haven't made any assumptions about you or your motivations.
    It's a verbatim video from Sky News. If you only watch news from sources you approve of you won't get the full picture. You should watch the video as it's wholly relevant. It's easy to nitpick but it's bloody hard to govern.

    Sorry for any assumptions, that was wrong of me, but that is how it comes across. This is a big step forward that is a big movement in the right direction. One can argue it doesnt go far enough but it is a sea change and a positive move and people really should see it like that (unless you approve of people losing almost all their savings?)

    It really does read a lot that people supportive of the opposition do not want things to succeed or do not want to see progress made if it isnt under their terms.

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