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Thread: Our defence

  1. #1

    Our defence

    Some of you might have spotted my reply to another thread, looking at clean sheets etc. While it's great to have won 3 of our last 4 games, and boy, we've needed to, there are still concerns about us defensively for Morison to sort out.

    It's been 19 games in all competitions since we last kept a clean sheet (Blackpool away). This might not bother some, as long as you score more than the other team you win, but statistically you win more points on average when you keep clean sheets than when you concede. Our club record is 29 games without a clean sheet (1933/34), so we're still some way off that; there have also been a handful of other times when we've gone 20 or more games without a clean sheet and in each of those seasons we've seen the club struggling at the wrong end of the table.

    If we concede in both of our next two home games we'll have created a new club record for games without a clean sheet at home. We haven't managed a shutout in 16 home games and 18 would be a new record.

    All of this comes as a rapid departure from our form at the end of last season. After 2 draws in his first two games, Mick McCarthy's side kept an incredible 8 clean sheets in 12 games, conceding only 5. The 11th game of that run, a 0-0 against Stoke, was the last time we kept a clean sheet at home. We beat Swansea 1-0 in the next fixture. Since then we've kept only 2 clean sheets in 30 games, the second worst record in our history. Who would have thought that would have been the case after the win at Swansea?

    The second game after the South Wales derby win was a 5-0 drubbing at Sheffield Wednesday. Including that game we've conceded 2 or more in 12 of our last 29 games. Any ideas to why there has been such a reverse in our defensive fortunes?

  2. #2

    Re: Our defence

    Not having a settled defence and keeper didnt help.

    Smithies lost his form , Morrison as well. 5 centre halves across a back 5.

    Its been a mess.

  3. #3

    Re: Our defence

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric the Half a Bee View Post
    Some of you might have spotted my reply to another thread, looking at clean sheets etc. While it's great to have won 3 of our last 4 games, and boy, we've needed to, there are still concerns about us defensively for Morison to sort out.

    It's been 19 games in all competitions since we last kept a clean sheet (Blackpool away). This might not bother some, as long as you score more than the other team you win, but statistically you win more points on average when you keep clean sheets than when you concede. Our club record is 29 games without a clean sheet (1933/34), so we're still some way off that; there have also been a handful of other times when we've gone 20 or more games without a clean sheet and in each of those seasons we've seen the club struggling at the wrong end of the table.

    If we concede in both of our next two home games we'll have created a new club record for games without a clean sheet at home. We haven't managed a shutout in 16 home games and 18 would be a new record.

    All of this comes as a rapid departure from our form at the end of last season. After 2 draws in his first two games, Mick McCarthy's side kept an incredible 8 clean sheets in 12 games, conceding only 5. The 11th game of that run, a 0-0 against Stoke, was the last time we kept a clean sheet at home. We beat Swansea 1-0 in the next fixture. Since then we've kept only 2 clean sheets in 30 games, the second worst record in our history. Who would have thought that would have been the case after the win at Swansea?

    The second game after the South Wales derby win was a 5-0 drubbing at Sheffield Wednesday. Including that game we've conceded 2 or more in 12 of our last 29 games. Any ideas to why there has been such a reverse in our defensive fortunes?
    Although I find it hard to separate them, I don’t think switching keepers as often as we’ve done during those thirty matches has helped. Also, we’ve had that area) measuring about ten yards out from the edge of our penalty area that has become a real problem as opponents are getting more time than they should to get shots or passes away. Two of our regular centrebacks (Morrison and Nelson) are struggling this season and although McGuinness has done quite well, he does have.a mistake in him. One other thing, we’re an ageing team particularly through the centreback/central midfield areas.

  4. #4

    Re: Our defence

    We seem to have been punished quite ruthlessly at times also. The last two matches we have conceded a goal from a single shot on target. The huddersfield match whilst they had chances they scored a goal with 2 shots on target after a Mcguiness mistake.

    There's absolutely no doubting we have been far poorer in defence and off the ball in general but in some matches along the way it feels to me like our opponents have been very clinical where as we have been anything but.

  5. #5

    Re: Our defence

    Quote Originally Posted by the other bob wilson View Post
    Also, we’ve had that area) measuring about ten yards out from the edge of our penalty area that has become a real problem as opponents are getting more time than they should to get shots or passes away.
    ^^^^^^^ This. It’s too easy to get at our defence through the soft centre.

  6. #6

    Re: Our defence

    when we are defending with 3 at the back then we really have to have a midfielder sitting in front of the back 3 to stop them from playing there.
    for the majority of the season it has been Pack filling that role, and he's pretty much the only senior player who I'd want doing it.
    if you asked ralls or bacuna to do that role then you'd lose a lot of their game, and there are question marks over whether they would be good enough defensively, likewise vaulks.

    pack is positionally disciplined, wins a lot of aerial balls and is a good passer of the ball.
    on the down side though i don't think he's the quickest across the pitch, and he doesn't move the ball that quickly either sometimes.

    to improve the defence then perhaps we need someone who can do the role pack has been doing but also be fast enough to close down more threats in that area. maybe Wintle is that man in the longer term, as he seems to do a fair amount of defensive work at Blackpool.

  7. #7

    Re: Our defence

    Quote Originally Posted by Rjk View Post
    when we are defending with 3 at the back then we really have to have a midfielder sitting in front of the back 3 to stop them from playing there.
    for the majority of the season it has been Pack filling that role, and he's pretty much the only senior player who I'd want doing it.
    if you asked ralls or bacuna to do that role then you'd lose a lot of their game, and there are question marks over whether they would be good enough defensively, likewise vaulks.

    pack is positionally disciplined, wins a lot of aerial balls and is a good passer of the ball.
    on the down side though i don't think he's the quickest across the pitch, and he doesn't move the ball that quickly either sometimes.

    to improve the defence then perhaps we need someone who can do the role pack has been doing but also be fast enough to close down more threats in that area. maybe Wintle is that man in the longer term, as he seems to do a fair amount of defensive work at Blackpool.
    I admit to being no tactical expert, but doesn't that mean we need a defensive midfielder to plug that gap whether we have 2 or 3 centre backs? Wouldn't playing with 3 centre backs give the defensive midfielder a bit more licence to venture forward?

  8. #8

    Re: Our defence

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric the Half a Bee View Post
    I admit to being no tactical expert, but doesn't that mean we need a defensive midfielder to plug that gap whether we have 2 or 3 centre backs? Wouldn't playing with 3 centre backs give the defensive midfielder a bit more licence to venture forward?
    with my very limited understanding of the tactic :
    it's a trade off,
    play with a back 4 and perhaps the CMs can play higher up the pitch
    VS playing with a back 3, allows the 2 wingbacks to push higher up the pitch (unless you are Mick McCarthy).
    Ive seen it said that 3-4-3 for example makes more "natural passing triangles" for playing out from the back than 4-4-2 for example- but I'm not entirely sold on that concept

  9. #9

    Re: Our defence

    Watching the last few games its seems we have a real problem when defending with composure and finding a blue shirt ,making the midfield look poor and play deeper as extra defensive cover instead of looking to playing forward , as a result we find ourselves on the back foot as the opposition retrieves the ball so easily ,quickly and too close to our penalty area, you then see huge gaps between the forward line and defence and folk shouting at the midfield deficiencies .

  10. #10

    Re: Our defence

    We need a specialist Central Defensive Midfielder. Have done for some time.

  11. #11

    Re: Our defence

    Quote Originally Posted by tforturton View Post
    We need a specialist Central Defensive Midfielder. Have done for some time.
    like that Ryan Wintle at Blackpool?

  12. #12

    Re: Our defence

    Quote Originally Posted by tforturton View Post
    We need a specialist Central Defensive Midfielder. Have done for some time.
    For me that is Pack with other midfielders like Ralls and Vaulks ahead of him , if Wintle is that good he'd be back soon and let Bacuna go as a wage trade off ?

  13. #13

    Re: Our defence

    We miss a fully-fit Bamba - someone who shouts, cajoles, points, etc. Flint does his bit, but for all the years I've watched Morrison I've never seen him trying to organize the back 3/4/5. And yes, different formations/personnel week in week out haven't helped.

  14. #14

    Re: Our defence

    Quote Originally Posted by Rjk View Post
    with my very limited understanding of the tactic :
    it's a trade off,
    play with a back 4 and perhaps the CMs can play higher up the pitch
    VS playing with a back 3, allows the 2 wingbacks to push higher up the pitch (unless you are Mick McCarthy).
    Ive seen it said that 3-4-3 for example makes more "natural passing triangles" for playing out from the back than 4-4-2 for example- but I'm not entirely sold on that concept
    Interesting. Thanks for that.

    I dare say that passing triangles from the back doesn't really concern us!

    When Jones was manager, it was noticeable that he would allow one full back to support and overlap a winger, keeping a back 3 at all times. The alternative would have been have a very defensive minded midfielder who would allow both full backs to support the wingers, which is basically a defensive 3.

    In a defensive sense, having two wing backs that get forward leaves the flanks more open. Under Warnock, sides rarely got down the sides of our defence as his wingers doubled as full backs, meaning they had to try and play through us.

  15. #15

    Re: Our defence

    Quote Originally Posted by tforturton View Post
    We need a specialist Central Defensive Midfielder. Have done for some time.
    Yep, we've never really replaced Gunnarsson

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