The Two-faced, hypocritical Buffoon and his Party set for a Mauling at PMQ's Today..

[JamesWales]

The Netherlands is much more densely populated than England. I thought Belgium would be too but different places seem to have different numbers.

As TBG said I’m not sure density is really a good measure here.

It really isn't. England is a very densely populated country. Wales / Scotland and N.Ireland bring the UK's density levels right down.

[delmbox]

It really isn't. England is a very densely populated country. Wales / Scotland and N.Ireland bring the UK's density levels right down.

The Netherlands is more densely populated than England, your wiki source is wrong. You can even tell it's wrong because the countries are all in descending population density order apart from The Netherlands.

The dangers of using Wiki as a source.

Here's one from a Professor in Urban Studies and Planning, University of Sheffield

file-20180118-158516-tnqwih.jpg

https://theconversation.com/think-yo...s-europe-90345

[ninian opinian]

They are valid concerns to people who are worried or annoyed about it. If you are working your arse off to provide for your family and making sacrifices and someone down the road is a benefit cheat, this will annoy you. Thats a valid concern. It may not be the country's biggest issue, but it's a valid issue for that person. It's not for you to decide what peoples concerns are. This is why we have universal suffrage, so all peoples concerns are heard.

Same as burglary may not be the biggest issue in the country, but for those who have been burgled, it is probably their number one concern and that's fair enough.

I agree with you on tax dodging, although the two aren't exclusive. They are both theft and really we don't need to seperate them out; people concerned about benefit cheats will also be concerned about tax avoidance.

Consider this. You are concerned about both benefit fraud and tax dodging.

One party says "I understand that and we will try and tackle that"

The other party says "pah, you dumbass, you should only be worried about one of those things! You are being lied to!"

Who are many people going to vote for?

Change the topic to Brexit, or cultural issues, or crime or any number of factors and it goes a long way to explaining why Labour lost the red wall and why more working class people now vote Tory than Labour. That may not continue, but for the last 5 years at least it's been about respect.

Valid concerns! I had a conversation only last week with a woman who was slagging off a benefits cheat who apparently had lived on benefits all their life when there was, in her words, “nothing wrong with them”. She then went on to say that her husband now works cash in hand and doesn’t declare it because he’s fed up of with benefits cheats.

I’d say those complaining the most are almost always ”up to their necks in it” that’s why they complain just to deflect their bad behaviour.

[Rjk]

It really isn't. England is a very densely populated country. Wales / Scotland and N.Ireland bring the UK's density levels right down.

that's kind of irrelevant. Nobody lives in the whole country. If they suddenly discovered that Devon and cornwall were actually 5 times bigger than they previously thought it would make the population density of England as a whole reduce, but it wouldn't make any day to day difference to someone living in Newcastle or Leeds.
The Netherlands and England are largely pleasant places to live - I've been to both plenty of times and I like them.

I've also been to far more densely populated countries - and those are also pleasant: Hong Kong for example.

England clearly isn't approaching being completely full - there may be problems associated with higher population density - but then there are also significant advantages.

[Baloo]

that's kind of irrelevant. Nobody lives in the whole country. If they suddenly discovered that Devon and cornwall were actually 5 times bigger than they previously thought it would make the population density of England as a whole reduce, but it wouldn't make any day to day difference to someone living in Newcastle or Leeds.
The Netherlands and England are largely pleasant places to live - I've been to both plenty of times and I like them.

I've also been to far more densely populated countries - and those are also pleasant: Hong Kong for example.

England clearly isn't approaching being completely full - there may be problems associated with higher population density - but then there are also significant advantages.

Yes, this can be over-simplified - Australia would have one of the lower population densities overall but is also one of the most urbanised countries in the world. So the 'lived' population density that most people ordinarily experience there is very high.

[JamesWales]

The Netherlands is more densely populated than England, your wiki source is wrong. You can even tell it's wrong because the countries are all in descending population density order apart from The Netherlands.

The dangers of using Wiki as a source.

Here's one from a Professor in Urban Studies and Planning, University of Sheffield

file-20180118-158516-tnqwih.jpg

https://theconversation.com/think-yo...s-europe-90345

Cheers for posting

Whether England is the most or one of the most densely populated countries in Europe, it is still very densely populated and people are allowed to have an opinion on that and have an issue with it.

I don't subscribe to the 'country is full' argument, but people are allowed to think it, and allowed to think that it impacts on quality of life etc if they so wish.

There will be plenty of things that we all choose as important to use that others will dismiss as folly, but thats life.

[Baloo]

It's interesting that somewhere like Denmark actually has a higher % urban population than England (88% v 83% I believe) but is often referred to as having one of the best quality of life scores in the world.

Not trying to hammer home any particular point here (I haven't really read back on this thread) but kind of links into RKJ's point above.

[JamesWales]

It's interesting that somewhere like Denmark actually has a higher % urban population than England (88% v 83% I believe) but is often referred to as having one of the best quality of life scores in the world.

Not trying to hammer home any particular point (I haven't really read back on this thread) but kind of links into RKJ's point above.

Yep, but these things are always summary opinions. Everyone will have a different consideration about what matters most. You'll find in most countries that concerns are often pretty similar.

Quite interesting to click back to pre-covid to see what worried Danes then.

https://www.ipsos.com/en-dk/what-worries-denmark

I'm interested in the different things that concern people anyway. There will be many I disagree with, but thats why I have a vote and they have a vote. Thats kinda the point.

Loads of stuff that Croesy or TOBW or anyone else will list as their main problems facing the country would be ones I would dismiss, and vice versa.

My over-riding point being. Just because you don't think something is an issue, it doesn't mean it isn't an issue for other people. We are all different and all views count.

[Baloo]

Yep, but these things are always summary opinions. Everyone will have a different consideration about what matters most. You'll find in most countries that concerns are often pretty similar.

Quite interesting to click back to pre-covid to see what worried Danes then.

https://www.ipsos.com/en-dk/what-worries-denmark

I'm interested in the different things that concern people anyway. There will be many I disagree with, but thats why I have a vote and they have a vote. Thats kinda the point.

Loads of stuff that Croesy or TOBW or anyone else will list as their main problems facing the country would be ones I would dismiss, and vice versa.

My over-riding point being. Just because you don't think something is an issue, it doesn't mean it isn't an issue for other people. We are all different and all views count.

I haven't read the full context of this discussion (and don't really plan to tbh), so just treat it as an observation based on the theme of the last few posts.

[Eric the Half a Bee]

May I suggest that people are allowed to be concerned about what they want. Annoyance at benefit fraud is very common in working class areas as it is at very close proximity to people who are playing it fair.

It's understandable that if someone is cheating the system in Ely, then someone living a few doors down and working etc will be more annoyed by it than someone in Lisvane for whom such things are generally out of sight.

The country isn't "full" but England by itself is the most densely populated major country in Europe, and people are allowed to see over development, the loss of some community assets, house price rises etc and associate the two.

In short, concerns over benefit fraud and population density are perfectly valid concerns for people. The mistake the left has generally made is the same one you are making now. You aren't understanding peoples concerns or offering viable solutions, you are merely mocking them and telling them what to think.

You need to learn to respect the electorate more, and if they have a view different to you, to understand it, not just dismiss it as someone being 'lied to'.

Out of interest, do you think these people are really experiencing what you write or is their experience second hand, learned from a bloke in the pub or read in the newspaper etc?

[Eric Cartman]

Cheers for posting

Whether England is the most or one of the most densely populated countries in Europe, it is still very densely populated and people are allowed to have an opinion on that and have an issue with it.

I don't subscribe to the 'country is full' argument, but people are allowed to think it, and allowed to think that it impacts on quality of life etc if they so wish.

There will be plenty of things that we all choose as important to use that others will dismiss as folly, but thats life.

What a weird post, nobody was saying they aren't allowed to think it.

[Dorcus]

What's politics about anyway if not to change people's perceptions on matters? I'm sure all of us have held irritating, unbalanced and selfish views on times but we are better off for having the intellect and openness to listen to counter arguments.

[JamesWales]

Out of interest, do you think these people are really experiencing what you write or is their experience second hand, learned from a bloke in the pub or read in the newspaper etc?

Yeah of course some people are experiencing it, and it annoys them, understandably so.

[JamesWales]

What a weird post, nobody was saying they aren't allowed to think it.

Actually, if you scroll back a page or two you will see that someone was saying the opinion isn't valid.

[blue matt]

You’ll lose your mind when you hear about the rich evading tax and hiding their wealth in offshore bank accounts. Surely your anger is best served on those. Reminds me of that famous cartoon Attachment 4711

not really, its always happened, its not a issue that has just happened on the Tories watch, pretty sure it was a point of discussion under Blair aswell

so my mind is perfectly safe

[blue matt]

Quite depressing to see people voting for the tories because of “benefit cheats” and for brexit because “country’s full”.

Two things that are never going to be solved by those votes.

Just for the record ( as it will now already have become fact in some minds ) I DID NOT vote for the conservatives due to my issue with " benefit cheats "

Appalling in my opinion but in fairness to Matt I have to give him a thumbs up for helping out at food banks ��

See above

Ref the food banks ( they wouldn't be needed if it wasn't for the tories etc etc ) , I might have told the story before, a few years back I watched a old couple load from the supermarket trolley to the boot of the car, they struggled a little,I asked them if they wanted a hand, they declined, So I popped along to the food bank and said " I can just load the trolley in my van and drop to to you " which I did every week, it then progressed slightly this year during the pandemic, I grabbed a load of trays of the £1 Easter eggs from sain'ers shelf and took them to the food bank and told them if any come in with kids, give them a egg, its progressed slightly more this christmas, I ordered 200 Maltesers and cadburys selection box's from B&M ( they were the cheapest I could find at under a quid each ) dropped them of last week, it wasn't a lot, but might cheer some poor sod up a little

So if you have a spare 20 quid, or dont have your takeaway this week, pop to the supermarket and buy some selection box's and share the goodwill

[jeepster]

Just for the record ( as it will now already have become fact in some minds ) I DID NOT vote for the conservatives due to my issue with " benefit cheats "



See above

Ref the food banks ( they wouldn't be needed if it wasn't for the tories etc etc ) , I might have told the story before, a few years back I watched a old couple load from the supermarket trolley to the boot of the car, they struggled a little,I asked them if they wanted a hand, they declined, So I popped along to the food bank and said " I can just load the trolley in my van and drop to to you " which I did every week, it then progressed slightly this year during the pandemic, I grabbed a load of trays of the £1 Easter eggs from sain'ers shelf and took them to the food bank and told them if any come in with kids, give them a egg, its progressed slightly more this christmas, I ordered 200 Maltesers and cadburys selection box's from B&M ( they were the cheapest I could find at under a quid each ) dropped them of last week, it wasn't a lot, but might cheer some poor sod up a little

So if you have a spare 20 quid, or dont have your takeaway this week, pop to the supermarket and buy some selection box's and share the goodwill

Can not fault you

[Eric the Half a Bee]

Yeah of course some people are experiencing it, and it annoys them, understandably so.

Some. I reckon that if you put a figure on it it would be less than a quarter. Much less. The rest hear and read stories, some true, but most are utter bullshit and make their minds up from that.

Take, for instance, social media. Every year we get bollocks about people not being allowed to wear poppies, about the word Christmas not being allowed etc. Lots of people believe tripe like this and share it happily.

People often tell me they don't want immigrants coming over here. Each time I ask them how their lives have been negatively affected by immigrants. I rarely get a reply.

[Dorcus]

Just for the record ( as it will now already have become fact in some minds ) I DID NOT vote for the conservatives due to my issue with " benefit cheats "



See above

Ref the food banks ( they wouldn't be needed if it wasn't for the tories etc etc ) , I might have told the story before, a few years back I watched a old couple load from the supermarket trolley to the boot of the car, they struggled a little,I asked them if they wanted a hand, they declined, So I popped along to the food bank and said " I can just load the trolley in my van and drop to to you " which I did every week, it then progressed slightly this year during the pandemic, I grabbed a load of trays of the £1 Easter eggs from sain'ers shelf and took them to the food bank and told them if any come in with kids, give them a egg, its progressed slightly more this christmas, I ordered 200 Maltesers and cadburys selection box's from B&M ( they were the cheapest I could find at under a quid each ) dropped them of last week, it wasn't a lot, but might cheer some poor sod up a little

So if you have a spare 20 quid, or dont have your takeaway this week, pop to the supermarket and buy some selection box's and share the goodwill

Again, well done Matt, that puts some of us to shame 👍

[ninian opinian]

Just for the record ( as it will now already have become fact in some minds ) I DID NOT vote for the conservatives due to my issue with " benefit cheats "



See above

Ref the food banks ( they wouldn't be needed if it wasn't for the tories etc etc ) , I might have told the story before, a few years back I watched a old couple load from the supermarket trolley to the boot of the car, they struggled a little,I asked them if they wanted a hand, they declined, So I popped along to the food bank and said " I can just load the trolley in my van and drop to to you " which I did every week, it then progressed slightly this year during the pandemic, I grabbed a load of trays of the £1 Easter eggs from sain'ers shelf and took them to the food bank and told them if any come in with kids, give them a egg, its progressed slightly more this christmas, I ordered 200 Maltesers and cadburys selection box's from B&M ( they were the cheapest I could find at under a quid each ) dropped them of last week, it wasn't a lot, but might cheer some poor sod up a little

So if you have a spare 20 quid, or dont have your takeaway this week, pop to the supermarket and buy some selection box's and share the goodwill

Food banks have increased 3,800% under the Tories. And people still vote for them. Instead of giving £20 to a food bank perhaps vote for a party that doesn’t cause this.

[Eric Cartman]

Actually, if you scroll back a page or two you will see that someone was saying the opinion isn't valid.

Those two things aren't the same.

[A Quiet Monkfish]

Some. I reckon that if you put a figure on it it would be less than a quarter. Much less. The rest hear and read stories, some true, but most are utter bullshit and make their minds up from that.

Take, for instance, social media. Every year we get bollocks about people not being allowed to wear poppies, about the word Christmas not being allowed etc. Lots of people believe tripe like this and share it happily.

People often tell me they don't want immigrants coming over here. Each time I ask them how their lives have been negatively affected by immigrants. I rarely get a reply.

Do you work for BT ? Because if you do you would have received an email asking staff to refer to the 'holidays' not 'Christmas', presumably so as to avoid offence to non-Christians.

[lisvaneblue]

May I suggest that people are allowed to be concerned about what they want. Annoyance at benefit fraud is very common in working class areas as it is at very close proximity to people who are playing it fair.

It's understandable that if someone is cheating the system in Ely, then someone living a few doors down and working etc will be more annoyed by it than someone in Lisvane for whom such things are generally out of sight.

The country isn't "full" but England by itself is the most densely populated major country in Europe, and people are allowed to see over development, the loss of some community assets, house price rises etc and associate the two.

In short, concerns over benefit fraud and population density are perfectly valid concerns for people. The mistake the left has generally made is the same one you are making now. You aren't understanding peoples concerns or offering viable solutions, you are merely mocking them and telling them what to think.

You need to learn to respect the electorate more, and if they have a view different to you, to understand it, not just dismiss it as someone being 'lied to'.

Be cautious, Roosevelt said " a man who has never been to school may steal from a freight car, but if he has a university education he may steal the whole railroad"

[Eric the Half a Bee]

Do you work for BT ? Because if you do you would have received an email asking staff to refer to the 'holidays' not 'Christmas', presumably so as to avoid offence to non-Christians.

I thought refering to Christmas as holidays was an American thing? They've been saying it for decades. This whole thing about not offending non Christians or non whatever is really a load of bunkum.

[life on mars]

I thought refering to Christmas as holidays was an American thing? They've been saying it for decades. This whole thing about not offending non Christians or non whatever is really a load of bunkum.

I thought Xmas was being rebanded as Lockdown !