Cancel culture

[JamesWales]

What do you mean already a preconceived right or wrong? How does this suggest it?

Anyway there are plenty of jokes that “punch down” they’re just a lot harder to execute without looking like a smug twat so punching up is usually used a lot more as it’s often more entertaining.

It’s much easier to get a laugh about the Queen or the President than someone who’s living on the breadline.

I think as with so many things in the last few years, the fault line has been brexit, and there's been so many jokes, from generally wealthier remain voters (comedians, media types etc) aimed at generally poorer brexit voters (the poor overwhelmingly voted leave) labelling them racist, stupid, gullible etc without any attempt to understand things. That has been the greatest mass example of 'punching down' and snobbery I've witnessed in my lifetime. I think it's the double standards really.

This addresses some of it - references Ian Dunt, althouth for me the worse example, the very epitome of smug is James O Brien.
https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...oted-remain-eu

https://www.express.co.uk/news/polit...-racist-stupid

Anywaaaay. I very much advocate a position where we can all make fun of but also respect and try and understand all positions and sharing and experiencing different cultures and jokes is key to that.

[Pearcey3]

I think as with so many things in the last few years, the fault line has been brexit, and there's been so many jokes, from generally wealthier remain voters (comedians, media types etc) aimed at generally poorer brexit voters (the poor overwhelmingly voted leave) labelling them racist, stupid, gullible etc without any attempt to understand things. That has been the greatest mass example of 'punching down' and snobbery I've witnessed in my lifetime. I think it's the double standards really.

This addresses some of it - references Ian Dunt, althouth for me the worse example, the very epitome of smug is James O Brien.
https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...oted-remain-eu

https://www.express.co.uk/news/polit...-racist-stupid

Anywaaaay. I very much advocate a position where we can all make fun of but also respect and try and understand all positions and sharing and experiencing different cultures and jokes is key to that.

Seriously? Just how smug were arch leavers like Rees-Mogg, Gove, Johnson, Tim Martin etc? It cuts both ways.

[JamesWales]

And trumping that..

Stewart Lee, whom I used to really like, and still do like his style. Can you match this smug ignorance?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMvwNkPgwgg

This probably helped his career, yet others are chastised for far worse, and I think that's what grates really, the cutural norms are reflective of a broadly elitist position.

[JamesWales]

Seriously? Just how smug were arch leavers like Rees-Mogg, Gove, Johnson, Tim Martin etc? It cuts both ways.

I absolutely knew that would be the response! It's a fact, most people on lower socio economic status or earnings voted leave. Yet jokes like this were fine and lapped up and did no damage to his career it seems. No calls to be cancelled...and that's right! That's how it should be!

Imagine the furore if the joke was aimed at some of the groups who typically try to cause the cancelling / ending of careers?

I only mention this as an example of punching down which was deemed fine in this case.

[caerkid]

It does go on and people are definitely fearful of voicing their opinions in front of many 'liberals' in much the same way that others are in front of some conservatives, especially in the past. I have a friend at BBC radio Wales who strongly stated this was the case there. You just have to toe the line to the prevailing elite.

Is this the same prevailing elite who have been in government for the last decade and own the vast majority of the press or are we talking about the imaginary one again ?

This reads an awful lot like 'if I said my offensive thoughts out loud someone may call me out on it'. There was a time when keeping your horrible little thoughts to yourself in wider company was just called being polite. For all the talk of 'snowflakes' and 'karens' the poor oppressed rightwing are rather prone to screaming they've been 'cancelled' in every paper and TV show available if someone on twitter dares points out they've said something offensive.

Good work Croesy for talking sense in this thread!

[Pearcey3]

Is this the same prevailing elite who have been in government for the last decade and own the vast majority of the press or are we talking about the imaginary one again ?

This reads an awful lot like 'if I said my offensive thoughts out loud someone may call me out on it'. There was a time when keeping your horrible little thoughts to yourself in wider company was just called being polite. For all the talk of 'snowflakes' and 'karens' the poor oppressed rightwing are rather prone to screaming they've been 'cancelled' in every paper and TV show available if someone on twitter dares points out they've said something offensive.

Good work Croesy for talking sense in this thread!

Spot on.

[WJ99mobile]

Your examples of Cancel culture were Jim Davidson, chubby brown and Louis ck.

What else am I asking Louis ck about?

Have you been to university? It’s about 0.01% of the whole student base involved in these groups protesting. ****ing busy bodies who go into student politics then real politics. People need some perspective, it’s “political correctness gone mad” all over again ffs.

Is this the same prevailing elite who have been in government for the last decade and own the vast majority of the press or are we talking about the imaginary one again ?

This reads an awful lot like 'if I said my offensive thoughts out loud someone may call me out on it'. There was a time when keeping your horrible little thoughts to yourself in wider company was just called being polite. For all the talk of 'snowflakes' and 'karens' the poor oppressed rightwing are rather prone to screaming they've been 'cancelled' in every paper and TV show available if someone on twitter dares points out they've said something offensive.

Good work Croesy for talking sense in this thread!

Unless it impacts you.

This all stemmed from a trans-gender debate that women didn't feel safe in certain situations with someone that biologically was born a man, or however you interpret it. That's a feeling I can't comprehend so I can't say if it's fair.

I think the conversation is allowed to be had without being called out straight away.

But agree - In the main, just keep your thoughts to yourself

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

As far as I am concerned cancel culture , snowflakes , woke this , woke that , all lives matter is the language of people represented by Katy Hopkins

Complete Kents basically

I mean if someone isn't offended by different cultures , sexualities etc then why whinge and moan about it ?

I am with Stewart Lee

In the past right wing comedians were represented by Jim Davidson

Now they have degrees and worked in the city

Still Kents though

[Elwood Blues]

I see that depressingly this seems to have turned into a Right v Left issue again.

Forgetting that majority which lie in the centre.

Cancel culture is a far more complex issue than just left v right.

Or just saying " well this sort of thing has always happened look at Mary Whitehouse or the BBC banning records" without recognising the game changer which is the internet.

Especially bloody twitter. Which is an excellent idea in theory , but has turned into a complete can of worms.

[JamesWales]

I see that depressingly this seems to have turned into a Right v Left issue again.

Forgetting that majority which lie in the centre.

Cancel culture is a far more complex issue than just left v right.

Or just saying " well this sort of thing has always happened look at Mary Whitehouse or the BBC banning records" without recognising the game changer which is the internet.

Especially bloody twitter. Which is an excellent idea in theory , but has turned into a complete can of worms.

I agree on all counts there.

[Croesy Blue]

Louis CK was one of the biggest if not the biggest at the time. He was still economically viable. Still is and still sells out shows. He still has been blacklisted from most of most of the services like Netflix.

Economically viable, but cancelled.

That was in direct response to your point - whenever a counter narrative is shown you go onto a different topic than dealing with the reply.

House of cards. Cancelled off TV. If Chapelle wasn't so big they would have never have shown that special.

I'm not saying it shouldn't be cancelled or it's wrong to do what they're doing but you can't deny it isn't real.

That’s just people being sacked for being sexual deviants ffs, that’s always happened it isn’t a new phenomenon.

Surely these people deserved to lose their jobs?

I don’t understand what your point is even, 2 people rightly sacked isn’t the best example is it?

[WJ99mobile]

I don’t understand what your point is even?

I can see that. I'm not sure if its ignorance or purposeful.

They deserved to be punished. But it shows that cancel culture exists, which is my point.

They took it off-air because of what happened, not because people stopped watching.

I'm not that bothered as I agree they deserve to have repercussions for their actions.

[delmbox]

I can see that. I'm not sure if its ignorance or purposeful.

They deserved to be punished. But it shows that cancel culture exists, which is my point.

They took it off-air because of what happened, not because people stopped watching.

I'm not that bothered as I agree they deserve to have repercussions for their actions.

The idea that someone can wank unsolicited in front of women and when they get censured for it that comes under the umbrella "cancel culture" is absolutely ludicrous. Where's the line then? Does Jimmy Saville come under cancel culture? Absolutely ridiculous statement

[WJ99mobile]

The idea that someone can wank unsolicited in front of women and when they get censured for it that comes under the umbrella "cancel culture" is absolutely ludicrous. Where's the line then? Does Jimmy Saville come under cancel culture? Absolutely ridiculous statement

Agreed.

Like I said I'm not condoning any actions all I am saying that there IS a line and people are trying to manipulate the line.

My examples are on the extreme side but i'm just giving examples.

Louis CK is still touring. People are still buying his tickets. There would be some that would say that he should never be allowed to tour again. Therefore there is cancel culture whether it's fair or not.

[delmbox]

Agreed.

Like I said I'm not condoning any actions all I am saying that there IS a line and people are trying to manipulate the line.

My examples are on the extreme side but i'm just giving examples.

But this idea of an all prevailing wave of cancel culture that kills careers is a complete fallacy. The only person I can think of in recent memory who's career has actually been killed is Harvey Weinstein, and that's with good, criminal, reason.

The others mentioned:

JK Rowiing - Her books sold were up 10.9% last year
Louis CK - Still touring
Roy Chubby Brown - Still touring
Jim Davidson - Still touring
John Cleese - Got a documentary out

"Cancel Culture" is just people telling you that they think you're an arsehole, usually when you've behaved like one. Students protesting against certain performers has always happened, I remember Dapper Laughs getting a tour cancelled about 10 years ago for saying some dodgy stuff about rape, no one complained about cancel culture then because certain elements of the media hadn't decided they wanted to construct a moral panic about it yet. Reminds me of that period in the 90's when the media decided that road rage was everywhere, and you felt like you couldn't get into a car without being in danger of someone going for you. Road rage hasn't gone away since then, it just never existed in the way they made it seem.

Twitter etc makes it seem like there's a huge groundswell of opinion and someone's getting "cancelled" but the reality is it's just a few thousand people making a noise for a short period of time, same as most protests. Truth is most of the people who talk about being cancelled just aren't relevant anymore, there's plenty of comedians doing edgy stuff but it works because it's funny.

As mentioned before, see South Park and It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia for two prime, modern examples of shows that say the most awful stuff but are loved and keep getting made.

[Croesy Blue]

And trumping that..

Stewart Lee, whom I used to really like, and still do like his style. Can you match this smug ignorance?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMvwNkPgwgg

This probably helped his career, yet others are chastised for far worse, and I think that's what grates really, the cutural norms are reflective of a broadly elitist position.

You don’t like it because it’s a good joke at your expense. You’re more than allowed to boycott him and “cancel” him if it hurts your feelings.

What is the opposite of this joke that’s getting people cancelled then? Who has been chastised for far worse? Being chastised isn’t being cancelled is it?

I’m going to see Stewart Lee next month, cannot wait 👌

[JamesWales]

You don’t like it because it’s a good joke at your expense. You’re more than allowed to boycott him and “cancel” him if it hurts your feelings.

What is the opposite of this joke that’s getting people cancelled then? Who has been chastised for far worse? Being chastised isn’t being cancelled is it?

I’m going to see Stewart Lee next month, cannot wait ��

Mate, that seriously isn't a good joke. He's a funny man, but that is the epitome of 'punching down'. So you clearly dont have an issue with jokes that punch down despite what you said. As usual, the principle here is political. If its the right kind of punching down or offence then it's fine; basically based on your beliefs.

The last thing I would do is call for him to be cancelled. Thats the second point I'm making. He's said something really pretty offensive (and definitely quite snobby) and thats fine. I think he's a knob for it but I defend his right to do it. Others don't, they try to get them taken off bills etc.

That's the root of what we are talking about here. The inconsistency. If those that preach tolerance could show a bit more of it, then that would be a great thing.

[Croesy Blue]

In response to WJ

No one is saying you can’t have the debate though the problem is the debate, to me at least, stinks of the debate about gay people in the 90s and focusses on rape and peadophilia which isn’t actually happening.

In reality people share bathrooms and changing rooms no problem but again it’s blown out of proportion in the press and celebrities on Twitter with nothing better to do get caught in a rabbit hole they can’t get out of without making themselves look like twats.

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

The new wave of British comedy brought humour that wasn't about some Indian bloke down the corner shop , banana boats etc

It's pretty inclusive stuff

It just tends to show up racists , Tories and little englanders

So it's all good

[Croesy Blue]

Mate, that seriously isn't a good joke. He's a funny man, but that is the epitome of 'punching down'. So you clearly dont have an issue with jokes that punch down despite what you said. As usual, the principle here is political. If its the right kind of punching down or offence then it's fine; basically based on your beliefs.

The last thing I would do is call for him to be cancelled. Thats the second point I'm making. He's said something really pretty offensive (and definitely quite snobby) and thats fine. I think he's a knob for it but I defend his right to do it. Others don't, they try to get them taken off bills etc.

That's the root of what we are talking about here. The inconsistency. If those that preach tolerance could show a bit more of it, then that would be a great thing.

I didn’t say I had a problem with jokes punching down, I said they had to be good and we’re harder to write.

As always you’ve not read my posts you’ve just put together a response you think fits something in your head.

The problem with comedy like this is taking it out of context of the wider show, Stewart Lee is playing a character the same as almost every stand up comedian. He’s even said he wish he’d given his stand up persona a separate name to stop the confusion. The good thing is he does have very similar political views to this character but wouldn’t express them this way in real life.

The same way al Murray’s pub landlord is a character but people are often too thick to see that he’s taking the piss out of people like that.

You are doing the very thing you are making up that cancel culture is. It’s actually very ironic.

[Croesy Blue]

The new wave of British comedy brought humour that wasn't about some Indian bloke down the corner shop , banana boats etc

It's pretty inclusive stuff

It just tends to show up racists , Tories and little englanders

So it's all good

Comedy is inclusive because it takes the piss out of everyone without being actually offensive.

Almost every comedian takes the piss out of lefties but the people who are complaining in this thread see nothing out of the 2 minutes clips the dailymail post out of context to rile up the people stupid enough to watch it.

It’s why the Dave Chapelle special went ahead still because seeing something out of context of the show doesn’t work.

[Croesy Blue]

And trumping that..

Stewart Lee, whom I used to really like, and still do like his style. Can you match this smug ignorance?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMvwNkPgwgg

This probably helped his career, yet others are chastised for far worse, and I think that's what grates really, the cutural norms are reflective of a broadly elitist position.

Just to highlight how stupid this is Stewart Lee’s whole comedy persona is basically a smug prick. How the **** can you say you like his comedy if you don’t even grasp that?

Lee's delivery utilises various onstage personae, frequently alternating between that of an outspoken liberal hero and that of a depressed failure and champagne socialist. In an ironic manner, he often criticises the audience for not being intelligent enough to understand his jokes, saying they would prefer more simplistic material,

If anything sums up cancel culture and outrage it’s James’s reaction here.

[JamesWales]

Just to highlight how stupid this is Stewart Lee’s whole comedy persona is basically a smug prick. How the **** can you say you like his comedy if you don’t even grasp that?



If anything sums up cancel culture and outrage it’s James’s reaction here.

A day ago you were arguing that cancel culture doesn't exist, now it exists, but bizarrely is manifested in me highlighting the hypocrisy of it whilst pointing to a plainly offensive and very bigoted joke and simultaneously arguing that in no way should he be cancelled for it!

I do appreciate that like any artist they have a certain on stage persona and I do like Stewart Lee. We both know it isn't comparable to the Pub Landlord mind. I just think its worth you considering that other people absorb that kind of thing (basically being called c**ts by a very privileged and wealthy guy to a room of people laughing) and they manage to not call for him to be cancelled or prevented from working.

If we can apply the same principle across the board then the conversations about cancel culture will all disappear. Basically, within the confines of the law; live and let live

[Croesy Blue]

Cancel culture doesn't exist but you whinging about a comedian's routine because you don't realise he's in character is the exact sort of stuff that causes people to think cancel culture exists. The same principle is applied across the board, how many actual comedians have been stopped touring because of a joke they've told?

Listen to any Steward lee interview and he equates himself to the pub landlord and wishes he'd given himself a different stage name so dopes like you would stop pearl clutching.

If I'm honest I don't think you've watched very much stand up comedy or comedy on tv in recent years if you think cancel culture exists for comedians.

[Croesy Blue]

Be honest now James are you playing a character on here? because it's too funny otherwise. Youre like this ffs:

I think comedians should be able to joke about whatever they wants blacks, gays, jews all up for grabs or it's PC gone mad!!!!
B-b-b-but pwease don't make fun of b-b-b-brexit