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Thread: Devolution Wales v Scotland/NI

  1. #1

    Devolution Wales v Scotland/NI

    How does Scotland and N.Ire always seem to have more control than us? N.I didn't even have a functioning government a year or so ago.

    Is it simply a case of asking Westminster for control and them constantly saying no? Surely there is precedent if one other country of the UK has control over it and another without requests it? £500m a year revenue is crazy and only looking likely to grow further.

    https://www.thenational.wales/enviro...00-signatures/

    https://www.change.org/p/welsh-secre...redirect=false

  2. #2

    Re: Devolution Wales v Scotland/NI

    The short answer is that Scotland and N.Ireland already had notably different systems in place prior to 1997 so they inherited a more advanced set of powers post devolution.

    It's basically one say traffic since then in terms of more and more powers being devolved from Westminster to Edinburgh, Cardiff and Belfast but Wales is still less far down that road and probably always will be.

    The other element is that Wales & England are far more aligned economically in terms of cross-border travel etc which probably dampens the demand to do things differently all the time.

  3. #3

    Re: Devolution Wales v Scotland/NI

    maybe we are a passive, indifferent and/or gutless people.

  4. #4

    Re: Devolution Wales v Scotland/NI

    Quote Originally Posted by Divine Wright View Post
    maybe we are a passive, indifferent and/or gutless people.
    I have noticed Welsh people are generally very loyal people, almost to the point of being gutless so I have to agree with your comment. Having lived in Canada, Australia, NZ they all are very passionate about their own and the stuff they do well, Welsh are often dismissive and lacking in any belief of their own products, companies, culture. Wales has done a lot of for the world for the size/stature of the country but the lack of self belief in society is suffocating.

  5. #5

    Re: Devolution Wales v Scotland/NI

    Quote Originally Posted by Divine Wright View Post
    maybe we are a passive, indifferent and/or gutless people.
    This. Too many aspirational Tories. Too many royalists. Too many people afraid to do anything. Leaving the UK and joining the EU is a political and financial no-brainer. We'd have a say, and we'd get a TON of investment.

  6. #6

    Re: Devolution Wales v Scotland/NI

    Quote Originally Posted by NYCBlue View Post
    This. Too many aspirational Tories. Too many royalists. Too many people afraid to do anything. Leaving the UK and joining the EU is a political and financial no-brainer. We'd have a say, and we'd get a TON of investment.
    This 100%, completely agree. Agree with every single point, how a government can make another countries taxpayer pay for its own rail network is frankly absurd but people just accept it and complain we are too weak, poor etc. The furlough disaster in 2020 when Wales was rejected an extension only for it to be put in place a week later when England needed it showed exactly the pecking order of the UK, regardless if Wales pays in more/less tax, Wales should be able to access Welsh taxpayers funds, especially in the middle of a pandemic.

  7. #7

    Re: Devolution Wales v Scotland/NI

    Quote Originally Posted by NYCBlue View Post
    This. Too many aspirational Tories. Too many royalists. Too many people afraid to do anything. Leaving the UK and joining the EU is a political and financial no-brainer. We'd have a say, and we'd get a TON of investment.
    Well thats one take on it I suppose! I don't see how you can accuse Wales of having too many people afraid to do anything when we voted to leave the EU which quite clearly was quite a radical thing to do - and will result in a lot more powers for the senedd too as in devolved areas, Wales will gain what Brussels had. Farming for example.

    As one of Western Europe's poorer areas we would get some EU invetsmebt but it would absolutely pale into insignificance compared to UK finding, which people never seem to mention btw.

    Wales has public expenditure of 11,000 per head. England is £9,600. The sad reality is we spend far more than we earn, so leaving the UK and joining the EU absolutely would not deliver what you say and it most definitely is not a 'no brainer'

    https://www.gov.uk/government/statis...-november-2020

  8. #8

    Re: Devolution Wales v Scotland/NI

    Quote Originally Posted by JamesWales View Post
    Well thats one take on it I suppose! I don't see how you can accuse Wales of having too many people afraid to do anything when we voted to leave the EU which quite clearly was quite a radical thing to do - and will result in a lot more powers for the senedd too as in devolved areas, Wales will gain what Brussels had. Farming for example.

    As one of Western Europe's poorer areas we would get some EU invetsmebt but it would absolutely pale into insignificance compared to UK finding, which people never seem to mention btw.

    Wales has public expenditure of 11,000 per head. England is £9,600. The sad reality is we spend far more than we earn, so leaving the UK and joining the EU absolutely would not deliver what you say and it most definitely is not a 'no brainer'

    https://www.gov.uk/government/statis...-november-2020
    Too much sense in this post

  9. #9

    Re: Devolution Wales v Scotland/NI

    Quote Originally Posted by JamesWales View Post
    Well thats one take on it I suppose! I don't see how you can accuse Wales of having too many people afraid to do anything when we voted to leave the EU which quite clearly was quite a radical thing to do - and will result in a lot more powers for the senedd too as in devolved areas, Wales will gain what Brussels had. Farming for example.

    As one of Western Europe's poorer areas we would get some EU invetsmebt but it would absolutely pale into insignificance compared to UK finding, which people never seem to mention btw.

    Wales has public expenditure of 11,000 per head. England is £9,600. The sad reality is we spend far more than we earn, so leaving the UK and joining the EU absolutely would not deliver what you say and it most definitely is not a 'no brainer'

    https://www.gov.uk/government/statis...-november-2020
    there's a difference between spending and investment.

  10. #10

    Re: Devolution Wales v Scotland/NI

    Quote Originally Posted by Rjk View Post
    there's a difference between spending and investment.
    Yes there is but if we lose billions in spending and investment and gain a few hundred million from the EU, whilst removing ourselves from the UK internal market, I would say the net result is likely to be negative.

    I'm generally opposed to Independence but I am open minded on the pros and cons of it, but claiming it's a no brainer is not true at all. If it is a no brainer on anything it's that we would lose an enormous amount of support from being part of the UK.

  11. #11

    Re: Devolution Wales v Scotland/NI

    Quote Originally Posted by JamesWales View Post
    Yes there is but if we lose billions in spending and investment and gain a few hundred million from the EU, whilst removing ourselves from the UK internal market, I would say the net result is likely to be negative.

    I'm generally opposed to Independence but I am open minded on the pros and cons of it, but claiming it's a no brainer is not true at all. If it is a no brainer on anything it's that we would lose an enormous amount of support from being part of the UK.
    the economic arguments against independence for Wales would have applied equally, if not more so to Ireland 100 years ago.
    they were the poorest part of the UK, today they are richer than the UK.
    if they had not become independent they would prit still be the poorest part of the UK.

    the additional spend Wales gets compared to the rest of the UK is because we are older, poorer and in worse health. but none of that money is going to change that. only infrastructure and transformational spending will achieve that and Wales are always a forgotten child when it comes to that.

  12. #12

    Re: Devolution Wales v Scotland/NI

    Quote Originally Posted by Rjk View Post
    the economic arguments against independence for Wales would have applied equally, if not more so to Ireland 100 years ago.
    they were the poorest part of the UK, today they are richer than the UK.
    if they had not become independent they would prit still be the poorest part of the UK.
    Ireland's GDP is heavily misleading due it being something of a tax haven for large multinationals.

    As a result of their inflated gdp they also have to make some of the highest contributions to the blocs budget.

  13. #13

    Re: Devolution Wales v Scotland/NI

    Quote Originally Posted by Rjk View Post
    only infrastructure and transformational spending will achieve that and Wales are always a forgotten child when it comes to that.
    It was the Assembly that decided there would no more new roads built. The road and rail systems in Wales needs to be massively overhauled, if we're ever to attract investment.

  14. #14

    Re: Devolution Wales v Scotland/NI

    Quote Originally Posted by Trigger View Post
    Ireland's GDP is heavily misleading due it being something of a tax haven for large multinationals.

    As a result of their inflated gdp they also have to make some of the highest contributions to the blocs budget.
    GDP is slightly skewed but even without that it is definitely not the poor relation of the rest of the UK.
    had it remained part of the UK I am absolutely convinced that it would be to this day.

  15. #15

    Re: Devolution Wales v Scotland/NI

    Quote Originally Posted by Rjk View Post
    GDP is slightly skewed but even without that it is definitely not the poor relation of the rest of the UK.
    had it remained part of the UK I am absolutely convinced that it would be to this day.
    I totally agree.

  16. #16

    Re: Devolution Wales v Scotland/NI

    The United Kingdom is rotting from the southeast. The idea of a Kingdom is medieval let alone a united one. I'll never support a UK model of governance ever.

  17. #17

    Re: Devolution Wales v Scotland/NI

    Devolution in my humble opinion is a waste of Welsh tax payers money that just creates another layer of bureaucracy and cost .

    I can think of better ways of spending £58m each year , if they get they there way and add another 20 AM's with support costs it will rise again and only 46.6% of the population vote for the leaders we have ?

    This article is from 2013

    https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/w...rs-13m-2224322

  18. #18

    Re: Devolution Wales v Scotland/NI

    Quote Originally Posted by Wozza16 View Post
    This 100%, completely agree. Agree with every single point, how a government can make another countries taxpayer pay for its own rail network is frankly absurd but people just accept it and complain we are too weak, poor etc. The furlough disaster in 2020 when Wales was rejected an extension only for it to be put in place a week later when England needed it showed exactly the pecking order of the UK, regardless if Wales pays in more/less tax, Wales should be able to access Welsh taxpayers funds, especially in the middle of a pandemic.
    Thinly veiled ‘I didn’t support Brexit’

  19. #19

    Re: Devolution Wales v Scotland/NI

    Quote Originally Posted by life on mars View Post
    Devolution in my humble opinion is a waste of Welsh tax payers money that just creates another layer of bureaucracy and cost .

    I can think of better ways of spending £58m each year , if they get they there way and add another 20 AM's with support costs it will rise again and only 46.6% of the population vote for the leaders we have ?

    This article is from 2013

    https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/w...rs-13m-2224322
    Creates another level of bureaucracy? Aren't you forgetting something? It replaces an incompetent one with a successful one.

  20. #20

    Re: Devolution Wales v Scotland/NI

    Quote Originally Posted by JamesWales View Post
    Well thats one take on it I suppose! I don't see how you can accuse Wales of having too many people afraid to do anything when we voted to leave the EU which quite clearly was quite a radical thing to do - and will result in a lot more powers for the senedd too as in devolved areas, Wales will gain what Brussels had. Farming for example.

    As one of Western Europe's poorer areas we would get some EU invetsmebt but it would absolutely pale into insignificance compared to UK finding, which people never seem to mention btw.

    Wales has public expenditure of 11,000 per head. England is £9,600. The sad reality is we spend far more than we earn, so leaving the UK and joining the EU absolutely would not deliver what you say and it most definitely is not a 'no brainer'

    https://www.gov.uk/government/statis...-november-2020
    This just supports my original argument. They just went along with what the English were doing. Scotland didn't.

    As for public expenditure, of course it's higher in Wales than in England. England is where all the money is. If Wales became part of the world's second-largest GDP, expenditure becomes investment.

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