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Thread: Kids today! Are they really?

  1. #21

    Re: Kids today! Are they really?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tuerto View Post
    Ramsey
    Earnie
    Collins
    Gunter
    Jerome
    Ralls
    Ledley

    All of those players either came through our system or were playing regularly at a young age. All of them were either as good or better than the more established/ senior players within a very short time after making their debut.
    Ralls is the odd one out to me. Not because I don't agree with you but because he's a shadow of his younger self and wouldn't have survived alongside Peter Whittingham et al playing the kind of game he plays now. It's pretty bad how a series of managers have stuffed his game.

    I'd forgotten about Gunter too. Will any of our current crop be added to that list? Just to be pedantic, what do you regard as a very short time?

  2. #22

    Re: Kids today! Are they really?

    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen's Nephew View Post
    Ralls is the odd one out to me. Not because I don't agree with you but because he's a shadow of his younger self and wouldn't have survived alongside Peter Whittingham et al playing the kind of game he plays now. It's pretty bad how a series of managers have stuffed his game.

    I'd forgotten about Gunter too. Will any of our current crop be added to that list? Just to be pedantic, what do you regard as a very short time?
    10 games i would say. That's just my opinion. If a young player (especially if they're creative) aren't showing progress then they will be out and substituted with 'Experience' Defenders with us just have to be able to stop the opposition adequately enough to get themselves a career, we don't do creative defenders (homegrown) Like i said, it's just my opinion, but there is pressure on young players to show managers that they're progressing, and i would say that they are scrutinised more that established players simply because of their developmental stage. It might not be fair, but it's the way it is, and the way it has always been in my opinion. Agree about Ralls.

  3. #23

    Re: Kids today! Are they really?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tuerto View Post
    10 games i would say. That's just my opinion. If a young player (especially if they're creative) aren't showing progress then they will be out and substituted with 'Experience' Defenders with us just have to be able to stop the opposition adequately enough to get themselves a career, we don't do creative defenders (homegrown) Like i said, it's just my opinion, but there is pressure on young players to show managers that they're progressing, and i would say that they are scrutinised more that established players simply because of their developmental stage. It might not be fair, but it's the way it is, and the way it has always been in my opinion. Agree about Ralls.
    I wouldn't write off any youngster completely based on just this season because playing in the current team if you're just making your way in the game is a bit of a poisoned chalice - I honestly think the seventeen year old Aaron Ramsey would have found it hard in the current side with it's residue of players who may have been effective under Warnock or Harris, but are now going over the top or are being found out by our desire to paly more football.

    That's why I said that the onus is on the youngsters to come up with match changing moments of skill this season because the older players are very, very unlikely to do so - especially with Keiffer not being the player he was last year. Over the past couple of seasons, Lee Tomlin and Harry Wilson have been charged with being our sole consistent "match changer" and it's instructive to see how they often were unable to influence proceedings in the first halves of games while opponents had the fitness to close them down - this allied, to our frequent inability to supply them with the sort of ball they could do something with meant that we had to wait for the last quarter of the match before Tomlin or Wilson would start making a difference.

    This season the Tomlin/Wilson equivalents for the first half of the campaign were Ryan Giles and Rubin Colwill, both of whom were twenty one or under. The former was a success, but is something of a one trick pony - that's not a criticism even if it sounds like one, his crossing is excellent and we've really missed it since he returned to Wolves, but if you can stop his crosses, then he doesn't have much else to hurt you with. As for Colwill, he has been, to use a word I heard to describe his performance for the Under 23s yesterday, patchy, but who else was going to be a better bet in the number ten type role for City this season out of the players available?

    One other thing, "patchy" was a diplomatic way of describing Colwill's performance for the Under 23s yesterday, poor would be more like it for me. As I mentioned in my blog piece on the game, some of the others in the team who are close to first team selection redeemed poor first half performances somewhat as the match went on, but I'm afraid Colwill didn't and, although it's unfair to draw too many conclusions from one game, there were a few in yesterday's team that looked like their exposure to the first team had sent them backwards when you compare what they did yesterday with what they were doing in the second half of last season at under 23 level.

  4. #24

    Re: Kids today! Are they really?

    Quote Originally Posted by the other bob wilson View Post
    I wouldn't write off any youngster completely based on just this season because playing in the current team if you're just making your way in the game is a bit of a poisoned chalice - I honestly think the seventeen year old Aaron Ramsey would have found it hard in the current side with it's residue of players who may have been effective under Warnock or Harris, but are now going over the top or are being found out by our desire to paly more football.

    That's why I said that the onus is on the youngsters to come up with match changing moments of skill this season because the older players are very, very unlikely to do so - especially with Keiffer not being the player he was last year. Over the past couple of seasons, Lee Tomlin and Harry Wilson have been charged with being our sole consistent "match changer" and it's instructive to see how they often were unable to influence proceedings in the first halves of games while opponents had the fitness to close them down - this allied, to our frequent inability to supply them with the sort of ball they could do something with meant that we had to wait for the last quarter of the match before Tomlin or Wilson would start making a difference.

    This season the Tomlin/Wilson equivalents for the first half of the campaign were Ryan Giles and Rubin Colwill, both of whom were twenty one or under. The former was a success, but is something of a one trick pony - that's not a criticism even if it sounds like one, his crossing is excellent and we've really missed it since he returned to Wolves, but if you can stop his crosses, then he doesn't have much else to hurt you with. As for Colwill, he has been, to use a word I heard to describe his performance for the Under 23s yesterday, patchy, but who else was going to be a better bet in the number ten type role for City this season out of the players available?

    One other thing, "patchy" was a diplomatic way of describing Colwill's performance for the Under 23s yesterday, poor would be more like it for me. As I mentioned in my blog piece on the game, some of the others in the team who are close to first team selection redeemed poor first half performances somewhat as the match went on, but I'm afraid Colwill didn't and, although it's unfair to draw too many conclusions from one game, there were a few in yesterday's team that looked like their exposure to the first team had sent them backwards when you compare what they did yesterday with what they were doing in the second half of last season at under 23 level.
    Interesting what you say about Colwill and others, concerning their exposure to first team football. What you say is completely plausible in my opinion, it's an interesting theory. It could also mean that they may feel after what they have achieved in the first team, that going back down to U23 is a sort of demotion in real terms.

    I do wonder if the expectation has got to Colwill a bit, and that he has stagnated somewhat.

  5. #25

    Re: Kids today! Are they really?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tuerto View Post
    Interesting what you say about Colwill and others, concerning their exposure to first team football. What you say is completely plausible in my opinion, it's an interesting theory. It could also mean that they may feel after what they have achieved in the first team, that going back down to U23 is a sort of demotion in real terms.

    I do wonder if the expectation has got to Colwill a bit, and that he has stagnated somewhat.
    I didn’t think he’d dropped off in form in recent weeks, he wasn’t turning it on in every game, but he hadn’t been doing that earlier in the season either - for me, he was just showing that bit of inconsistency you’d see from a young player coming into the first team in sides that aren’t fighting a relegation battle.

    I think you make a fair point about a sense of anti climax about finding themselves back playing at Leckwith in front of one man and his dog. There’s been stacks of games down the years where a City reserve team with plenty of first teamers in it for one reason or another has been pretty awful and it’s accepted that this is because, for example, the last thing they want is an injury which will rule them out for weeks or months, so why shouldn’t it be the same for players such as Colwill, Evans, Bowen and Bagan?

  6. #26

    Re: Kids today! Are they really?

    Quote Originally Posted by the other bob wilson View Post
    I didn’t think he’d dropped off in form in recent weeks, he wasn’t turning it on in every game, but he hadn’t been doing that earlier in the season either - for me, he was just showing that bit of inconsistency you’d see from a young player coming into the first team in sides that aren’t fighting a relegation battle.

    I think you make a fair point about a sense of anti climax about finding themselves back playing at Leckwith in front of one man and his dog. There’s been stacks of games down the years where a City reserve team with plenty of first teamers in it for one reason or another has been pretty awful and it’s accepted that this is because, for example, the last thing they want is an injury which will rule them out for weeks or months, so why shouldn’t it be the same for players such as Colwill, Evans, Bowen and Bagan?
    I think that there's been a fair bit of expectation put on colwill, but through good will as opposed to critical and high expectation. I can't recall the last creative player that came through to show some promise, and after what we have endured in footballing terms over the past ten years or so, seeing a player like colwill or Davies is the footballing equivalent (for us) of the return of the red squirrel south of Yorkshire for nature enthusiast's! I hope that he and others do not stagnate, it's a very difficult situation that they've been thrust into. Inexperienced manager and a change of style with players with little or no ability to implement it

  7. #27

    Re: Kids today! Are they really?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tuerto View Post
    I think that there's been a fair bit of expectation put on colwill, but through good will as opposed to critical and high expectation. I can't recall the last creative player that came through to show some promise, and after what we have endured in footballing terms over the past ten years or so, seeing a player like colwill or Davies is the footballing equivalent (for us) of the return of the red squirrel south of Yorkshire for nature enthusiast's! I hope that he and others do not stagnate, it's a very difficult situation that they've been thrust into. Inexperienced manager and a change of style with players with little or no ability to implement it
    Agreed and a great analogy with the red squirrel

  8. #28

    Re: Kids today! Are they really?

    Hardly suprising. Colwill has gone from being in a squad for the euros to being not wanted on the bench for a useless squad heading for relegation.

  9. #29

    Re: Kids today! Are they really?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hilts View Post
    Hardly suprising. Colwill has gone from being in a squad for the euros to being not wanted on the bench for a useless squad heading for relegation.
    Despite being one of the few players to put in a decent performance at any point this season. I can see that being dispiriting

    I do feel the youngsters get treated more harshly than the senior players. Colwill for instance being dropped despite being one of our top scorers, Bowen having to "earn his place" back with the seniors after impressing before injury. What has Pack done this season to earn his place in the side? If we're dropping players for poor performances then he should be with the u23s after the disasterclass he put on at Bristol? If you look at our wins this season the youngsters are often directly involved: Colwill at Forest, Davies v Huddersfield, Colwill (again) at Luton. For all this talk of playing young players, we seem to have gone backwards in that regard under Morison

  10. #30

    Re: Kids today! Are they really?

    When it became clear over last summer, that the "kids" would be playing a much bigger role in the side going forward than in the past, most welcomed it as a good thing.
    Even if 2 of them make it at this level in the long run, that is still 2 players we don't need to sign, meaning we have more money to spend on the players we do need to.

    At the time I remember there being many words of caution, saying that they would likely be inconsistent, have good games and then bad games, and would unlikely be in the side week in week out as they continue their football education. Patience is what is required.

    Fast forward a few months all that goes out the window. you don't have to look very hard and you can read various comments like "hasn't got it" ,"league one at best" etc etc about the youngsters.
    Its a real pity we didn't make time to bring through youth in our more successful sides, as it has to be a lot easier to get upto speed when the team is playing well.

  11. #31
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    Re: Kids today! Are they really?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rjk View Post
    When it became clear over last summer, that the "kids" would be playing a much bigger role in the side going forward than in the past, most welcomed it as a good thing.
    Even if 2 of them make it at this level in the long run, that is still 2 players we don't need to sign, meaning we have more money to spend on the players we do need to.

    At the time I remember there being many words of caution, saying that they would likely be inconsistent, have good games and then bad games, and would unlikely be in the side week in week out as they continue their football education. Patience is what is required.

    Fast forward a few months all that goes out the window. you don't have to look very hard and you can read various comments like "hasn't got it" ,"league one at best" etc etc about the youngsters.
    Its a real pity we didn't make time to bring through youth in our more successful sides, as it has to be a lot easier to get upto speed when the team is playing well.
    Good post.

    We need patience for the younger players (and accept some mistakes), and a bit more consistency when it comes to instant judgement and opinions from pundits and posters.

    This has been a shocker of a season for many reasons, but if we come out of it with a large group of academy players established in the first team squad, a changed playing style (again patience needed) based on more possession and technical skills, and our place in the Championship maintained, I will be content. Transition, but not melt-down.

  12. #32

    Re: Kids today! Are they really?

    Quote Originally Posted by the other bob wilson View Post
    Agreed and a great analogy with the red squirrel
    That was brilliant!

  13. #33

    Re: Kids today! Are they really?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tuerto View Post
    the footballing equivalent (for us) of the return of the red squirrel south of Yorkshire for nature enthusiast's!
    I love that!
    What a great analogy.

  14. #34

    Re: Kids today! Are they really?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rjk View Post
    When it became clear over last summer, that the "kids" would be playing a much bigger role in the side going forward than in the past, most welcomed it as a good thing.
    Even if 2 of them make it at this level in the long run, that is still 2 players we don't need to sign, meaning we have more money to spend on the players we do need to.

    At the time I remember there being many words of caution, saying that they would likely be inconsistent, have good games and then bad games, and would unlikely be in the side week in week out as they continue their football education. Patience is what is required.

    Fast forward a few months all that goes out the window. you don't have to look very hard and you can read various comments like "hasn't got it" ,"league one at best" etc etc about the youngsters.
    Its a real pity we didn't make time to bring through youth in our more successful sides, as it has to be a lot easier to get upto speed when the team is playing well.
    This was the reason for my OP though to be fair and why I'm interested in the level of protection you're advocating. I'm not saying it's wrong. I think I'm more concerned it's misplaced. It's why I wanted thoughts about age and development. The distinction between players in their teens to young men in their early twenties.

    To be cold-blooded for a moment, don't we pay to see people at the best in their profession? Does it really matter what age a player is if they make mistakes or aren't doing the basics of what we expect from people being paid very well to perform in a sporting arena?

    So what if younger players are criticised? Why protect a certain group and not another? Aren't all players equal when they get selected for the starting eleven and pull on the shirt? We make allowances, sure, but excuses? Isn't that double standards and selective?

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