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Lots of media saying that the invasion is imminent..what are your thoughts and what are putin's chances ?
No, I don't think he wants a war, but he really doesn't want Ukraine to become part of the West instead of a Russian satellite state.
He's probably not expected as much resistance from the west, given the amount he has gotten away with before, so I think he's just seeing how far he can take things.
That is not to say I don't think he will start a conflict, I tihnk he's definitely capable of that.
An invasion of Ukraine (or part of it) is highly unlikely to start another world war.
Talked about this elsewhere, but whilst I stress he has zero right to do it, there is some justification from his perspective to invade eastern Ukraine. Can claim he's protecting ethnic Russians etc. Which is bollocks, but he can claim it and also he wouldn't face total opposition in those areas.
But there seems to be more talk now of encircling Kiev which seems utter madness. To what end? There is zero justification and opposition to it would be near total.
The world is in safe hands.
Putin was right not to be worried by Boris Johnson's sanctions announcement.
All bluster. No bite.
Do we now know who is lined up to pay the next redecoration bill for the flat?
I think there's a long list of rich Tory backers who crave gongs.Originally Posted by jon1959
Jesus Christ, even in the face of an autocrat invading another country, you too still manage to whinge about Boris Johnson.
When the points are relevant to the discussion, I generally disagree with you, but at least they are pertinent. But when the matter in hand is a serious geo-political conflict then your anti-Boris posts are just embarrassing.
Get a grip
I think there's lot going on. Nord Stream 2 will deprive the Ukraine of billions in transit fees , Putin is worried about NATO , its probably his last throw of the dice to be seen as a glorious Russian .
The latest point under discussion is the alleged barrage of sanctions to deter Putin's plans for Ukraine and promote a diplomatic solution to the crisis.
Jesus Christ, even in the face of an autocrat invading another country, you too still manage to whinge about Boris Johnson.
When the points are relevant to the discussion, I generally disagree with you, but at least they are pertinent. But when the matter in hand is a serious geo-political conflict then your anti-Boris posts are just embarrassing.
Get a grip
Pointing out - as have most of the contributions in Parliament - that Boris Johnson's list is pathetic, is totally pertinent.
Your continuous, reflex, defence of this clown is more than embarrassing.
At least you could contribute with a comment on the sanctions package - that would at least be relevant!
Get a grip!
Caroline Lucas:
'Is that it?
'Sanctioning 5 banks and 3 oligarchs suggests the Government cares more about protecting Tory party donations and London’s laundromat than it does about imposing meaningful sanctions against Moscow.'
Was it you or someone else who in the face of an autocrat invading another country was posting Guido Fawkes videos of the irrelevant thoughts of Diane Abbot recently?
Jesus Christ, even in the face of an autocrat invading another country, you too still manage to whinge about Boris Johnson.
When the points are relevant to the discussion, I generally disagree with you, but at least they are pertinent. But when the matter in hand is a serious geo-political conflict then your anti-Boris posts are just embarrassing.
Get a grip
If you believe the Government's pronouncements the UK has been at the forefront of holding a firm line against Putin's aggression. Today Germany blocked Nordstream 2 whilst the UK sanctioned a few oligarchs who have been subject to this by the US for 4 years. Surely the level of response is a legitimate topic of debate.
UK sanctions are not meaningful enough to deter. Anything severe from the EU block will be scuppered by Hungary I would imagine. Green light given to Putin to do whatever he wants to Ukraine.
It looks to me as though the government are concerned that weaning Britain off dirty russian money too quickly is too big a danger at this present time.
When you stand back and think about it, hitting 3 of the richest people in the world financially isn't really relevant to anything. It's all a bit silly really. You can only conquer force with force, and that isn't going to happen, so we end up with another round of 'statesmanlike' speeches with grave, serious voices, but nowt to offer.
Anyway, it's not really about Ukraine, more like Taiwan.
hmmmm...lets see.
I posted the below in response to someone elses post when discussing the build up to the invasion, in respect of misinformation, and people taking Putins position etc. Diane Abbot is the former home secretary and represents a slice of public opinion (that crosses the political spectrum) which frequently dances to Putins tune. Note that in that response, I recognise things not being black and white, recognise the west wanting regime change and defend Abbots right to say what she likes - balance!
"In fairness, nothing ever is entirely black or white. There is no doubt the west would like regime change in Russia for example, but that doesn't change who the aggressor is, which is plainly Russia which cannot get over an independent Ukraine looking towards the west
Nonetheless, here are the troops;
https://order-order.com/2022/02/11/s...kraine-crisis/
I should add, I entirely support Corbyn and Abbott's right to say whatever the hell they like."
https://www.ccmb.co.uk/showthread.ph...ighlight=guido
In this thread, on the day after Russia invades a sovereign country, breaking numerous moral and legal laws, we have the usual crowd instantly turning it into a situation to blame...guess who...Putin? nope. Boris Johnson - why of course!
The people of the Ukraine will be glad to know people are using this situation as an oppotunity to make cheap comments about the decorating of the Prime Ministers flat.
And you have ZERO idea that the sanctions we have imposed are not just and correct. You have no idea whatsoever. The point is to strike a balance between sanctions whilst also trying to de-escalate the situation.
That the day after the invasion the usual lot are instantly moaning about Boris Johnson says a lot
Personally, I think we could go further, but we are not privy to all the information. Irrespective, to start insinuating we are doing what we are doing due to corruption is, frankly, and ironically, dancing to Putins tune more than anything else, and there is not a shread of evidence for it.
Whatever sanctions we're announced you would have very little support , or the usual ""is that it " quote which in now the favoured advisors advise , at least Labour appear to be anti Russian and not anti NATO / USA ( or are they)
Jesus Christ, even in the face of an autocrat invading another country, you too still manage to whinge about Boris Johnson.
When the points are relevant to the discussion, I generally disagree with you, but at least they are pertinent. But when the matter in hand is a serious geo-political conflict then your anti-Boris posts are just embarrassing.
Get a grip
Oh spare us the sanctimony. You knew exactly why you dug up the Abbot video and it had nothing to do with balance (She's never been Home Secretary by the way or even held any kind of ministerial position). You showed your cards a little later in the thread. At that point you appeared more interested in the supposed petty point scoring you frown upon from others and one can only ponder on what the people of the Ukraine were thinking when you did it.
But claiming the west or NATO are the aggressors here is plainly absurd and just typical or the standard anti-American tropes that are pretty common amongst many in those circles.
I at least agree that Johnson's flat has little to do with this issue, though not irrelevant more generally. It would appear based on your over the top generalisations that a significant cross section of Parliament, from ERG members other Tory MPs, Labour, Lib-Dem, Green and SNP are, completely without evidence, also dancing to Putin's tune in criticising the government response.
If it has been easy to move Russian and other countries money and influence nto the UK it would be done by now It remains unanswered even for our crime agencies .
ONS estimate Russian money at 25bn not a huge sum In global terms , interestingly Finland has twice that invested and we don't seem bothered about that . ?
Money comes from obscure origins and shell companies and from many other countries, thats what makes our banking services so* attractive its one of our strengths that keeps our economy afloat .
Russian money poured in under Blair as well .
Sadiq Khan’s has had donations from Elena Baturina wife of a Moscow Mayor no wonder he allows blow ups of Trump,* not seen one of Putin yet , it's not just Tories you have to examine.
Britain was* bankrupt after* WW2 along came* the Soviet Union, who didn’t want to keep its dollars in US banks. It preferred London.
Why Russia and Britain perhaps its because Russia is il gas rich and lacks bank services and influences ,* whereas Britain is very strong in the later.
Yes the sanctions are weak its because its way too complicated and to get honest what else can they do .
British government didn't renew Romans Abramovichs visa either .
To be fair to the UK its been smarter than Europe n moving away from Russian gas year on year as its uses its own resources, so perhaps pat on the back
Is deserving.
Russia is probably very worried about renewables and the reduction in fossil needs , guess thats why they didn't engage with us and World at Climate Change summits .
No, you spare us the sanctimony.
The Ukraine has been invaded by Russia and some people on here instantly turn that into misinformation about Russian oligarchs and Tory donors and Johnsons flat. Exactly the kind of nonsense that spreads online, often emanating from Russia itself, and precisely the kind of cheap tropes that, ironically enough, Putin himself thrives upon.
If your first response to an invasion is to go on about Boris Johnsons flat, then you don't care two hoots about Ukraine. The same people who supported a man who endlessly defends Russia now demand that sanctions be harsher, with no real understanding of what the sanctions entail or whether they will or wont work. Give me a break.
And Diane Abbott was shadow home secretary. I am well aware that thankfully she never held office, so the most likely scenario here is a typo on my behalf (I neglected to write the word shadow).
It was a relevent point in a previous discussion because parts of the British left have emboldened Putin for many years, particularly when they captured the Labour party. This is a problem on the right too - note Aaron Bank's tweets today.
What this is absolutely feck all to do with is Boris Johnson's flat and people should be called out for spreading utter crap like that IMO, whether it's on twitter or on the micro-climate of CCMB.
I'm happy to call it out. You shout at me for doing so.
This is a very volatile situation. Implying our response is entirely rooted in corruption is as unhelpful as it is baseless.
Are 'the usual lot' the posters who consistently have a different opinion to you? Posters who don't use 'balance' as an excuse to let corruption and incompetence off the hook? Posters who don't think an ideal world is formed by a 50:50 mix of good and bad?
The subject of discussion today is sanctions. That is the subject everywhere - in assemblies, on social media, on TV, across mainstream media platforms. You seem very reluctant to engage with that, apart from championing the spin put forward by Boris Johnson's spokesperson (presumably Guto Hari).
With the exception of hardcore Johnson loyalists and the Daily Express (and you) most opinion is that the package announced by Johnson (in his best Churchillian mode) was thin, tepid, barely catching up with what other 'allies' have had in place for years. A significant part of the reaction to this pathetic gesture is that the Tory party are unwilling to go further - at least for now - because of their long-term relationship with Russian and London based oligarchs and actors allied to Putin.
The jibe about funding flat decorations was just a short-hand for that twisted relationship. The appearance is certainly there - and I suspect it is also a factor in the political calculation.
https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/dar...-tory-funding/
Let's get this right,
You think that a couple of people posting on a football messageboard will set the internet ablaze with stuff that has Putin rubbing his hands with glee? In fact the Russians probably started all this misinformation about Russian donations to the Tory Party and the UK's liberal approach to Russian money in the UK in the first place.
I see shares in some Russian banks have gone up since the UK sanctions were announced, quite an achievement. Also that Liz Truss is rolling out the "this is the first of a series of escalating steps2. Rhetoric somewhat different to Johnson's "barrage of sanctions" stuff of earlier. A sure sign that they have missed the ball.
The serious issue is whether anything that the UK has done has any relevant meaning. Germany has had a hard time from you and others on Nordstream2. I know where my money is on regarding which steps the West are taking has grabbed Putin's attention.
Do you have any evidence whatsoever for the insinuation earlier when you said? "Do we now know who is lined up to pay the next redecoration bill for the flat?"
Do you have any firm, clear idea that what the UK is proposing definitely won't work and definitely won't help to de-escalate the situation?
The answer to both is a resounding no.
Spreading nonsense online is never helpful, even if it's just a football messageboard. Doing it after a country has been invaded makes it even less helpful.
This is an incredibly tense and important situation. You don't know what the right response is yet, and nor do I. Either way, I repeat, this is nothing to do with decorating a flat and you shouldn't use this situation to make some cheap political point.
Germany has done nothing on Nordsteam. They havent ripped up the pipeline you know. It isnt currently operating. The UK's actions at this juncture probably has a more direct immediate impact
Poland by the way, have criticised Germany. And as for the EU: A senior EU diplomat previously said there was "a whole escalation ladder, starting with Russian individuals and moving up to finance, trade, and eventually energy", adding: "A lot is possible."
It seems that the UK approach is probably pretty much in line with others.
https://news.sky.com/story/ukraine-c...ussia-12548612
If you think £840 a roll is cheap you are more out of touch than I thought!
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