Cardiff City debt at £109m as Vincent Tan loans increase

[Undercoverinwurzelland]

Just noticed that Dalman mentions "Steve Morrison" with 2 Rs in his statement at the start of the report. Whoops.

[Cleve van Leef]

A question nobody has ever been able to answer (and I don't expect you to answer it either): what would happen to the debts if Tan snuffs it, I wonder? There's always been this notion that the debts are of no great concern as they are owed either to the club's 70 year-old owner or his companies. But what happens if and when he shuffles off this mortal coil?

Surely the debt would be included/added to his estate and therefore would have to be replayed to this. His executors would want it repayed

[Citizen's Nephew]

Surely the debt would be included/added to his estate and therefore would have to be replayed to this. His executors would want it repayed

But at least we'd know how he died.

[Citizen's Nephew]

Just so there's no confusion, I do know what an executor is. I just think it's one of those strange words that if read and not spoken always looks odd.

[dml1954]

I did. And it isn't.

You obviously didn't read it properly. Luckily other people did.

[PhyllisStant]

It will be interesting to see how close to break even we get next year. More gate revenue due to no covid restrictions and a potential wage bill reduction of between 5-7m might see us get close.

[Enoch Mort]

In past years I have been able to see the accounts before they were filed (on the strict condition which I always stuck to) of not releasing my commentary until the accounts were available for others to view on the public file at Companies House. This enabled me to have useful conversations with the clubs internal financial experts to discuss anomalies and avoid any factual errors or misunderstandings on my part. The report would then go out to Trust members, other fans and the media on the day of publication.

This year ,for reasons which they haven`t explained, the directors barred me from doing the same exercise so I have only seen the accounts at the same time as everyone else and could only start preparing my commentary this afternoon. It is done and has been sent round to my fellow Trust board members first for distribution to Trust members , hopefully this evening in its entirety. So please bear with me. To try and be helpful I have given some individual answers to questions raised below in this thread.

Keith

It's disappointing that you as Chairman of the Trust have not been accorded the usual privilege of seeing the accounts in advance. If the club are trying to improve their fan engagement then this is a backward step.

[Rjk]

It will be interesting to see how close to break even we get next year. More gate revenue due to no covid restrictions and a potential wage bill reduction of between 5-7m might see us get close.

I can't see how we can be, there's £35 million ish of parachute payments in these accounts that have just been published aren't there?

[The Lone Gunman]

You obviously didn't read it properly. Luckily other people did.

Not for the first time by any means, you're making a bit of a fool of yourself here.

The headline in the BBC article states the debt stands at £109 million, although the first paragraph suggests that was the figure last year.

It breaks down that figure as follows:

£60 million owed to Vincent Tan
£15.8 million owed to a finance company
£6.24 million owed to the EFL
£2 million owed to an unnamed club director

That's a total of just over £84 million. Not £109 million. However, the article goes on to say that the club has subsequently borrowed a further £22 million from unnamed lenders, but paid back £3.1 million of loans. So, that's £106 million borrowed and £3 million repaid, which leaves a balance of approximately £103 million.

Keith from the Trust has subsequently given us some new figures, which are:

£61 million owed to Vincent Tan
£17.8 million owed to a company under Mehmet Dalman's control
£3 million owed to U-Peng Tan
£6.2 million owed to the EFL

So that's a total debt of approximately £88 million. Not £109 million. The notes to the accounts say a further £22 million has been loaned, but neither the BBC nor Keith have said from who (possibly because the accounts don't give that information).

We've been told by the BBC that Tan has converted £6.6 million of his £60 debt to equity, which means he's still owed £53.4 million according to their figures. The other figures are £6.2 million owed to the EFL, £17.8 million owed to Mehmet Dalman and his company (information that was not provided by the BBC as the director was unnamed in their article) and £3 million to U-Peng Tan (who was not mentioned at all by the BBC).

So that gives us a total debt of £80.4 million, leaving approximately £28.6 million thus far unaccounted for. Hence my question.

Perhaps you have the answer, oh wise one. Maybe you can spell out exactly how the BBC's figure of £109 million was arrived at. And if you haven't got the answer, maybe your relatives in Sheffield have.

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Soup is our food

Greed is good

[Lawnmower]

Not for the first time by any means, you're making a bit of a fool of yourself here.

The headline in the BBC article states the debt stands at £109 million, although the first paragraph suggests that was the figure last year.

It breaks down that figure as follows:

£60 million owed to Vincent Tan
£15.8 million owed to a finance company
£6.24 million owed to the EFL
£2 million owed to an unnamed club director

That's a total of just over £84 million. Not £109 million. However, the article goes on to say that the club has subsequently borrowed a further £22 million from unnamed lenders, but paid back £3.1 million of loans. So, that's £106 million borrowed and £3 million repaid, which leaves a balance of approximately £103 million.

Keith from the Trust has subsequently given us some new figures, which are:

£61 million owed to Vincent Tan
£17.8 million owed to a company under Mehmet Dalman's control
£3 million owed to U-Peng Tan
£6.2 million owed to the EFL

So that's a total debt of approximately £88 million. Not £109 million. The notes to the accounts say a further £22 million has been loaned, but neither the BBC nor Keith have said from who (possibly because the accounts don't give that information).

We've been told by the BBC that Tan has converted £6.6 million of his £60 debt to equity, which means he's still owed £53.4 million according to their figures. The other figures are £6.2 million owed to the EFL, £17.8 million owed to Mehmet Dalman and his company (information that was not provided by the BBC as the director was unnamed in their article) and £3 million to U-Peng Tan (who was not mentioned at all by the BBC).

So that gives us a total debt of £80.4 million, leaving approximately £28.6 million thus far unaccounted for. Hence my question.

Perhaps you have the answer, oh wise one. Maybe you can spell out exactly how the BBC's figure of £109 million was arrived at. And if you haven't got the answer, maybe your relatives in Sheffield have.

Haven’t seen the accounts, but is the balancing figure ‘provisions’ .. which aren’t actually debts but could be..

£21m related to Salah and another big chunk for potential add ons to transfer fees for player purchases, most of which we won’t have to pay out, but will come off the books.

Might print them out and have a read in the way to QPR 😂

[Ninian1962]

Not for the first time by any means, you're making a bit of a fool of yourself here.

The headline in the BBC article states the debt stands at £109 million, although the first paragraph suggests that was the figure last year.

It breaks down that figure as follows:

£60 million owed to Vincent Tan
£15.8 million owed to a finance company
£6.24 million owed to the EFL
£2 million owed to an unnamed club director

That's a total of just over £84 million. Not £109 million. However, the article goes on to say that the club has subsequently borrowed a further £22 million from unnamed lenders, but paid back £3.1 million of loans. So, that's £106 million borrowed and £3 million repaid, which leaves a balance of approximately £103 million.

Keith from the Trust has subsequently given us some new figures, which are:

£61 million owed to Vincent Tan
£17.8 million owed to a company under Mehmet Dalman's control
£3 million owed to U-Peng Tan
£6.2 million owed to the EFL

So that's a total debt of approximately £88 million. Not £109 million. The notes to the accounts say a further £22 million has been loaned, but neither the BBC nor Keith have said from who (possibly because the accounts don't give that information).

We've been told by the BBC that Tan has converted £6.6 million of his £60 debt to equity, which means he's still owed £53.4 million according to their figures. The other figures are £6.2 million owed to the EFL, £17.8 million owed to Mehmet Dalman and his company (information that was not provided by the BBC as the director was unnamed in their article) and £3 million to U-Peng Tan (who was not mentioned at all by the BBC).

So that gives us a total debt of £80.4 million, leaving approximately £28.6 million thus far unaccounted for. Hence my question.

Perhaps you have the answer, oh wise one. Maybe you can spell out exactly how the BBC's figure of £109 million was arrived at. And if you haven't got the answer, maybe your relatives in Sheffield have.

Dave

The £109.5m figure is correct as at 31 May 2021.

My summary above did not include some other liabilities just most of the major ones. The full analysis coming to the total of £109.5m is as follows

Other loans £8.0m (including the £6.2m due to EFL)
Shareholder loans £61m
Director and connected party loans £20.8m
Trade creditors £0.8m (normal suppliers)
Football creditors £0.5m (deferred transfer fees)
Loan from director of a subsidiary £0.2m (not named)
PAYE/NI/VAT £2.9m - always paid after the month in which the debt was incurred
Other creditors £2.5m
Accruals £12.2m -will include things like season ticket money received in advance, interest on loans received (charged but some may be waived in a future year)

[Ninian1962]

Haven’t seen the accounts, but is the balancing figure ‘provisions’ .. which aren’t actually debts but could be..

£21m related to Salah and another big chunk for potential add ons to transfer fees for player purchases, most of which we won’t have to pay out, but will come off the books.

Might print them out and have a read in the way to QPR ��

Tim

I have analysed the full £109.5m below. The Sal provision is a a separate provision figure in the accounts

[xsnaggle]

Just noticed that Dalman mentions "Steve Morrison" with 2 Rs in his statement at the start of the report. Whoops.

Him or the people who typed and check read the statement?

[Lawnmower]

Tim

I have analysed the full £109.5m below. The Sal provision is a a separate provision figure in the accounts

Cheers Keith.

[NYCBlue]

Remember debt to equity? Whatever happened to that?

[Ninian1962]

Remember debt to equity? Whatever happened to that?

It is still going on. There was a further £6m+ this week.

[The Lone Gunman]

Dave

The £109.5m figure is correct as at 31 May 2021.

My summary above did not include some other liabilities just most of the major ones. The full analysis coming to the total of £109.5m is as follows

Other loans £8.0m (including the £6.2m due to EFL)
Shareholder loans £61m
Director and connected party loans £20.8m
Trade creditors £0.8m (normal suppliers)
Football creditors £0.5m (deferred transfer fees)
Loan from director of a subsidiary £0.2m (not named)
PAYE/NI/VAT £2.9m - always paid after the month in which the debt was incurred
Other creditors £2.5m
Accruals £12.2m -will include things like season ticket money received in advance, interest on loans received (charged but some may be waived in a future year)

Thanks, Keith. So there were plenty more creditors than were mentioned in the BBC article. No surprise there.

Two questions for you:

The BBC article mentions further loans of £22 million taken following the end of the financial year. Any idea who that money is owed to?

Also, should City fans be concerned that the club has apparently been borrowing large sums of money from a finance company linked to Mehmet Dalman?

[Ninian1962]

Thanks, Keith. So there were plenty more creditors than were mentioned in the BBC article. No surprise there.

Two questions for you:

The BBC article mentions further loans of £22 million taken following the end of the financial year. Any idea who that money is owed to?

Also, should City fans be concerned that the club has apparently been borrowing large sums of money from a finance company linked to Mehmet Dalman?

No idea of who has put the £22m of loans in since May 2021. If I were to guess, based on the interest rates of "up to" 9% I would say a mixture of Vincent Tan and Mehmet Dalman`s companies as VT charges 7% (but doesn`t usually then pay it to himself) and MD has charged 9%


Don`t think there is much cause for concern as Tormen has lent money to the club in previous years and declared it in the accounts but maybe a bit of a concern that no other individuals seem willing to provide those loans.