Brave Lady

[JamesWales]

Yes they are. It states in the government's own factsheet:

Provisions in the Bill will:

• Widen the range of conditions that the police can impose on static protests to match existing police powers to impose conditions on marches.

• Broaden the range of circumstances in which police may impose conditions on a protest.

It goes on to say:

"the police will only be able to impose conditions on unjustifiably noisy protests that cause harm to others or prevent an organisation from operating.

The threshold for being able to impose conditions on noisy protests will be appropriately high. Police will only use it in cases where it is deemed necessary and proportionate.

For an upcoming protest, the Chief Constable of the relevant force will be responsible for making the decision of whether the threshold is likely to be met. For a protest already taking place, the most senior officer at the scene will decide if the threshold is likely to be met. Depending on the circumstances, the senior officer would typically be an Inspector, Chief Inspector, or Superintendent."

So they are broadening the range of conditions that police can impose and broadening the range of circumstances in which they can impose them. Sounds a lot like 'restriction' to me

"impose conditions on" is their way of saying prevent the protest from taking place, start arresting people etc. and when the protest reaches that point will be decided by the police officer in charge on the day. That decision will be made based on a list of unquantifiable, vague criteria, allowing the police officer to make an arbitrary decision.

They are also making trespass a criminal offence, rather than a civil offence, which I imagine, will massively restrict people's ability to occupy buildings for example, without facing serious criminal charges. This also has serious implications for the traveller community.

I am willing to bet £100 with you now, that no right to protest will be made illegal. The terms of the protest may change, but that has always been the case.

When we protested the rebrand by marching, permission was first sought to close the roads etc etc etc.

Theres always restrictions on protest. Surely you don't think it right for people to blast a loud speaker outside Mark Drakefords house 24/7 or block the M4 because we don't like a certain law for example?

A right to protest is critical (I've been on loads myself) but there are limits that, for example, Extinction Rebellion pushed too far.

Anyway, all of this pales into insignificance compared to what is happening in Ukraine and Russia. We are lucky as hell.

[Raymond Holt]

I am willing to bet £100 with you now, that no right to protest will be made illegal. The terms of the protest may change, but that has always been the case.

When we protested the rebrand by marching, permission was first sought to close the roads etc etc etc.

Theres always restrictions on protest. Surely you don't think it right for people to blast a loud speaker outside Mark Drakefords house 24/7 or block the M4 because we don't like a certain law for example?

A right to protest is critical (I've been on loads myself) but there are limits that, for example, Extinction Rebellion pushed too far.

Anyway, all of this pales into insignificance compared to what is happening in Ukraine and Russia. We are lucky as hell.

So if you want to protest by trespassing, which under the new bill is a criminal offence, they are criminalising that method of protest. I'd prefer a bank transfer, will PM you my account details.

So you think you should have to seek permission to protest? Which means that the police can decide which causes are valid and which ones aren't. Right.

But at least it's not Russia, so we should just be grateful, shut up and get on with it. Hold on, isn't that how we got onto this in the first place?

[Wash DC Blue]

So a thread dedicated to Marina Ovsyannikova descends into domestic political point scoring.

Yay!

[JamesWales]

So a thread dedicated to Marina Ovsyannikova descends into domestic political point scoring.

Yay!

Standard.

And a change in UK law to stop people blocking roads to prevent ambulances passing suddenly becomes comparable to Russia.

It's mad. All this stuff boils up on twitter but it's always a stew with very little meat in it.

[jon1959]

This stuff is important. I am concerned about quite how rabidly pro-Ukrainian people are being, in a nation state sense. The support and sympathy absolutely belongs to the people, and I am 100% on Ukraines side, but there is a degree of naivity about it all.

Whilst Russia unequivocally is in the wrong, not everyone fighting the Russian invasion shares our values. And that is a lesson from history that we shouldn't forget.

I agree with most of that, but not all of 'us' share what you call 'our values' either. There have been a few reports in the last few days of Ukranian neo-Nazi groups recruiting volunteer fighters in the UK, and a raft of European and American far right nationalists (some of them white supremacists) piling in to Ukraine. Russia is in the wrong and Russia is the aggressor this time, but this is not the simplistic goodies v baddies conflict that much of the media and political caste are presenting.

It also exposes new depths of hypocrisy by the authorities. Celtic are fined by FIFA for their fans displaying Palestinian flags. No one will be fined for showing Ukranian flags anywhere. We have bucket collections for Ukraine (quite rightly) but no public/press/political outcry about Yemen where the death toll is massively higher. And our Prime Minister flies into Saudi Arabia to smooch with the regime in the middle of a new state bloodbath of executions (including those convicted after torture, as children, for political or religious opposition and for 'deviant' beliefs). If 'our values' also includes Boris Johnson and his gang then include me out!

However, from what I have seen and read I would happily endorse and support the values of Marina Ovsyannikova. I hope she gets some protection from the scale of international media and social media coverage of her brave action.

[blue matt]

I agree with most of that, but not all of 'us' share what you call 'our values' either. There have been a few reports in the last few days of Ukranian neo-Nazi groups recruiting volunteer fighters in the UK, and a raft of European and American far right nationalists (some of them white supremacists) piling in to Ukraine. Russia is in the wrong and Russia is the aggressor this time, but this is not the simplistic goodies v baddies conflict that much of the media and political caste are presenting.

.

We all know that the Ukraine ( and a fair few countries in that region ) have a issue with the far-right , the AZOV battalion was formed from them, we know that, its not a secret

BUT lets be honest here, Russia are the baddies ( and you have acknowledged that ), they have invaded a country and are bombing crap out of residential area's, they are murdering people, its a fairly simple thing to understand, one country invades another and continues to commit war crimes / bombing and shelling residential areas without a second thought for civilian life, that country are the baddies, the Ukrainian civilians ( many who are decent people ) Have little say on who is turning up to try and defend them ( and we have seen, they need defending ), so surely the goodies ( Ukrainian civilians ) can't be responsible for that

[Raymond Holt]

Firmly back on topic now; any journalist willing to defy a government to expose the truth is a hero. Imagine what would happen to her if she exposed Russia's war crimes. A brutal authoritarian state like Russia would force her into hiding no doubt, then the first chance it got it would lock her in a maximum security prison for life. Oh wait, that's us with Julian Assange.

[Tuerto]

I agree with most of that, but not all of 'us' share what you call 'our values' either. There have been a few reports in the last few days of Ukranian neo-Nazi groups recruiting volunteer fighters in the UK, and a raft of European and American far right nationalists (some of them white supremacists) piling in to Ukraine. Russia is in the wrong and Russia is the aggressor this time, but this is not the simplistic goodies v baddies conflict that much of the media and political caste are presenting.

It also exposes new depths of hypocrisy by the authorities. Celtic are fined by FIFA for their fans displaying Palestinian flags. No one will be fined for showing Ukranian flags anywhere. We have bucket collections for Ukraine (quite rightly) but no public/press/political outcry about Yemen where the death toll is massively higher. And our Prime Minister flies into Saudi Arabia to smooch with the regime in the middle of a new state bloodbath of executions (including those convicted after torture, as children, for political or religious opposition and for 'deviant' beliefs). If 'our values' also includes Boris Johnson and his gang then include me out!

However, from what I have seen and read I would happily endorse and support the values of Marina Ovsyannikova. I hope she gets some protection from the scale of international media and social media coverage of her brave action.

Well said. The other big problem is that the West will arm these Nazi-Extremist groups, as well as the Ukrainian Army, who will have no problem fighting alongside the Fascists. Arming Extremists does not work out well, as History shows us.

[Rjk]

Firmly back on topic now; any journalist willing to defy a government to expose the truth is a hero. Imagine what would happen to her if she exposed Russia's war crimes. A brutal authoritarian state like Russia would force her into hiding no doubt, then the first chance it got it would lock her in a maximum security prison for life. Oh wait, that's us with Julian Assange.

we aren't trying to lock up assange are we?
and to compare that to what Russia does to journalists is frankly ridiculous.
dozens of journalists have been murdered for daring to question the Putin regime

[jon1959]

we aren't trying to lock up assange are we?

Not trying - no. The trying stage is over.

He's pretty securely locked up in Belmarsh prison and facing extradition to the USA where they plan to lock him up again and throw away the keys. For industrial scale whistle blowing.

If only he had concentrated on exposing the crimes and lies of Putin he would have been given a peerage not a small cell.

But true of course that journalists in Russia (or Mexico etc) who offend the regime risk worse than imprisonment.

[NYCBlue]

In 2014 there was a democratically elected leader who was pro Russian who was then ousted in an uprising which was driven by the west via social media and backed by neo - nazi Ukrainian groups. It’s a long and complicated history between the two nations , who were the same country 33 years ago.

Have a look a Oliver Stones documentary which was produced in 2016

What do you think we were doing in Afghanistan, Iraq ,and Syria for balance ?

There is a wealth if information out there if you’re prepared to look.

He was ousted by the Ukrainian government after a people's revolution against him being a puppet of Putin. (he now resides in Russia) There was no military action. (I'm not suggesting outside forces had nothing to with it) but since then two democratic elections have taken place. Are you suggesting that the people of Ukraine (and Russia for that matter) prefer authoritarian governments as opposed to living in a democracy? And that the will of people to govern themselves is a result of western disinformation? People prefer democracy to tyranny.

[Raymond Holt]

we aren't trying to lock up assange are we?
and to compare that to what Russia does to journalists is frankly ridiculous.
dozens of journalists have been murdered for daring to question the Putin regime

He's effectively been imprisoned in London for 10 years. 7 in the Ecuadorian embassy, where conversations with his lawyer were spied on by the CIA. He's been in Belmarsh for almost three years and his fate now rests in the hands of Priti Patel after being denied an appeal against his extradition to the US. Once there he'll face a show trial and a 175-year sentence in a concrete cell in a US super-max. The CIA have already plotted to assassinate him and I'm sure once he's on American soil it won't take long for them to finish him off. The parallels with Russia, in this case, are clear.

[Raymond Holt]

Well said. The other big problem is that the West will arm these Nazi-Extremist groups, as well as the Ukrainian Army, who will have no problem fighting alongside the Fascists. Arming Extremists does not work out well, as History shows us.

You're spot on. These weapons which are being funnelled into Ukraine will be staying there when the conflict is over. There will be far-right battalions armed to the teeth with UK-made weapons.

https://questions-statements.parliam...2-03-14/139582

Interesting also that the sanctions on Russia could have such a large effect on UK living standards, on top of the challenges we already face over the energy crisis. Expect corporate media support for the Ukrainian cause to go into overdrive to counteract this.

http://web.archive.org/web/202203170...-2500-a-person

[TWGL1]

You're spot on. These weapons which are being funnelled into Ukraine will be staying there when the conflict is over. There will be far-right battalions armed to the teeth with UK-made weapons.

https://questions-statements.parliam...2-03-14/139582

Interesting also that the sanctions on Russia could have such a large effect on UK living standards, on top of the challenges we already face over the energy crisis. Expect corporate media support for the Ukrainian cause to go into overdrive to counteract this.

http://web.archive.org/web/202203170...-2500-a-person

Good Post

[Wash DC Blue]

Good Post

How was clown school today little Vlad?

[blue matt]

You're spot on. These weapons which are being funnelled into Ukraine will be staying there when the conflict is over. There will be far-right battalions armed to the teeth with UK-made weapons.

https://questions-statements.parliam...2-03-14/139582

when the invasion is over, most wouldn't want the Ukrainians to have no way to defend themselves from another attack from Russia,

a far-right battalion ( AZOV ) have been well armed since 2014 whilst fighting the Russian backed ( and even better armed ) separatists, so nothing will change in that aspect

Interesting also that the sanctions on Russia could have such a large effect on UK living standards, on top of the challenges we already face over the energy crisis. Expect corporate media support for the Ukrainian cause to go into overdrive to counteract this.

The world had to do something and sanctions were one of the easier options, personally, I would prefer for the UK to try and put pressure on Russia with sanctions than do nothing, unless you think that asking Putin politely would have been enough to get him to turn around the tanks

[TWGL1]

How was clown school today little Vlad?

Making assumptions again , I’m not taking sides , and there is no need to get personal and start insulting other posters who present a different opinion to yours.

What’s your views on the UK Government’s interventions in Iraq , Afghanistan and Syria and what’s your view of Saudi Weapons systems being used against Yemen being manufactured in Wales along with pilot training?

[Rjk]

Making assumptions again , I’m not taking sides , and there is no need to get personal and start insulting other posters who present a different opinion to yours.

What’s your views on the UK Government’s interventions in Iraq , Afghanistan and Syria and what’s your view of Saudi Weapons systems being used against Yemen being manufactured in Wales along with pilot training?

it has been shown that the Kremlin has been flooding some of this kind of whatabouttery onto various social media channels in the last few weeks.

sure criticise western governments for the things they do as well, but maybe that deserves its own thread?

[TWGL1]

it has been shown that the Kremlin has been flooding some of this kind of whatabouttery onto various social media channels in the last few weeks.

sure criticise western governments for the things they do as well, but maybe that deserves its own thread?

I thought this was old news , nothing to do with what you are saying regarding Russia, here is a news item from September and there is plenty online.

https://www.voice.wales/welsh-govern...ms-fair-again/

[Wash DC Blue]

Making assumptions again , I’m not taking sides , and there is no need to get personal and start insulting other posters who present a different opinion to yours.

What’s your views on the UK Government’s interventions in Iraq , Afghanistan and Syria and what’s your view of Saudi Weapons systems being used against Yemen being manufactured in Wales along with pilot training?

Some of your recent posts have been tinged with pro Kremlin sympathies imo.
Apologies if I get you wrong and my apologies for the personal dig.

I was massively against Iraq, it was a disaster.
Bush, Blair, Chaney, Rumsfeld etc should face justice.

I was pro going into Afghanistan after 9/11 and was sad to see it abandoned how it was.

Saudi is a reprehensible Kingdom.
I view the conflict in Syria as a proxy war another reprehensible regime, in Iran.

[NYCBlue]

I know there were a few on here that were watching Russia Today for some reason? Anyone still watching it? Because now would be a great time to "do your research" on how fair and balanced their reporting is?