Reply With QuoteCould any modern healthcare system be considered value for money? It's job is to keep people alive who have spent their existence actively destroying their own bodies, it is bound to be expensive.Originally Posted by TWGL1
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The entire inflation-adjusted budget of the Marshall Plan- which rebuilt Europe after WWII- is spent by the NHS once every 7 months.
With around 6 Million on the current waiting list , is this considered value for money ?
Could any modern healthcare system be considered value for money? It's job is to keep people alive who have spent their existence actively destroying their own bodies, it is bound to be expensive.
It's unfundable in its current state , sadly its a useful political football which restricts fundamental and drastic changes .
To think its in the top 10 of single organisations behind big countries armies is crazy , and for me identifies the problem .
Are you saying the problem with the NHS is it's too big?
What do you want to see in its place? Regional Health Services (or smaller?).
Or is it that it is a public service primarily funded through the Treasury (with chunks privatised to put a smile on shareholders' faces)?
Do you want more privatisation? Do you?
It is, of course, absolutely fundable in its current state - if the public and government want it to be funded. Political choices!
Always room for improvements - especially where health and social care meet, and in some parts of general practice. But the NHS remains a flagship public service that should be defended and praised - and properly funded to get the waiting lists down.
It is property funded however , it’s management structure needs reform as it’s too top heavy. Face to face appointments need to return.
Captain Tom raised £33 million in 2020 by walking laps of his garden.
This raised enough money to fund the NHS for 1.6 hours.
The NHS spends the entire yearly Ukrainian military budget once every 10 days and so on.
So a Marshall Plan every 7 months that spends the money raised by a Centurion every 100 minutes which you think is properly funded. All it needs to do is get rid of a few managers and rip off the Covid masks and all will be well again. Anything else?
No, get rid of all the managers then we can moan about doctors spending their time filling in paperwork.
There is no magic pill. You either need to reduce demand i.e. kill people or increase supply i.e. fund it better or work more efficiently. Carving it up into little pieces doesn't automatically increase efficiency so where are your easy wins?
https://www.theguardian.com/society/...vel-since-1997
Public satisfaction with the NHS has sunk to its lowest level since 1997, with just 36% of voters content with the way the health service is run and performing.
Satisfaction has dropped 17% since 2020 – the biggest drop since records began in 1983. The collapse has been driven by frustration over long waiting times for all main types of NHS care, the service’s persistent staff shortages and a widespread belief that the government has denied it the funding it needs.
The King’s Fund and Nuffield Trust thinktanks, which published the findings, said they were unprecedented and represented “the most extraordinary set of results we have seen”.
The Covid pandemic and the ensuing disruption to NHS services have deepened the fall in satisfaction but unhappiness – especially with access to GP appointments and routine surgery – was evident well before then. The NHS has seen a decade-long funding squeeze and a failure to address the chronic lack of staff, the thinktanks added.
About four in 10 people in England are now either on the 6.1 million-strong waiting list for planned NHS care or have a family member who is. “That’s the story behind the frustration – people deteriorating and in pain, people visiting their GP because they can’t get into hospital because of the waiting lists”
In better news for the NHS, the representative survey of 3,112 Britons undertaken in September and October found strong enduring support across voting lines for its founding principles: that it is funded by general taxation and available free of charge. The public also remain happy with the quality of care they receive and with the attitude and behaviour of staff they encounter when being treated.
The annual survey on public satisfaction with the NHS is out.
Can't say I'm surprised. Year one of Covid, people understood and tolerated it. Year two, far less so. It's critical we get back to normal asap in terms of hospital appointments etc. My local GP surgery remains shut; the nearest one being nearly two miles away.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-60917585#comments
We posted this same story at the same time!!
I thought you would pop up…..
The NHS spends Russia’s entirely military budget once every 100 days.
If the NHS was a military, it would have the 3rd highest funding in the world, only surpassed by the US and China’s militaries.
For reference I asked a question, it’s not necessary my opinion.
You could have a similar thread on corporations
To be fair you did ask a question. Is it value for money?
You then gave your opinion. It is properly funded but has too many managers and and not enough consultations are done face to face. This was interspersed between a series of spurious comparative statistics most of which seem to be seeking to equate the funding you think is a proper amount with military budgets of other countries for some strange reason.
Apologies for replying (again).
Yes way to big to fund in this modern world I note Wesley Paul William Streeting was saying this morning that the best position NHS was under Blair , perhaps as Labour move to a Tory Lite movement they may embrace Blair's private health care support as a solution .
quote from 2006 :
"Tony Blair today welcomed 11 private healthcare providers into the "NHS family", as he promised them the chance to gain a stronger foothold in the NHS.
Predicting that the private sector would soon provide up to 40% of NHS operations, Mr Blair said the independent providers could help drive up the quality of service to patients which he said was the "most important thing".
"By 2008 we could have as much as 40% of acute operations done in the private sector being done under the NHS banner," he told health bosses.
https://www.theguardian.com/society/...ealth.politics
Labour calling Tories a nasty tax raiser to pay for NHS seems like a changing of the guard ?
I was listening to a radio call in show the other day. The caller was unable to get a face to face appointment with his usual G.P , so went private.
His private doctor was his same NHS doctor he couldn’t see
Is that just an observation or is it supposed to be an argument against/in favour of further privatisation?
Starting to sound like a broken record, 'unfundable' doesn't mean anything. You still haven't explained how you reduce demand or increase efficiency (without increasing total spend).
The only figure that matters here is real terms spend per head and not one person in this thread has posted or even referred it.
An observation, however I’m led to believe lots of practices are private and receive a NHS grant.
Privatisation of the NHS is such a stupid idea. We have more privitisation than ever yet our waiting times are longer than ever, weird that.
Also take a look at the wonderful world that is privatised healthcare in the USA, these are rough figures but they spend something like 2.5 - 3x on healthcare per person, for worse outcomes with about 70 million people who can't access healthcare. It's also the biggest cause of bankruptcy in the USA.
How people have been convinced privitisation = more efficiency I'll never ever understand. I wonder if it could be the 40 years of billionaire owned newspapers convincing the British public this is the case so that their mates can be made richer. Also don't forget that often when we privatise things we're selling it to foreign governments.
This line of thought is incredible and shows why the country is in the sad state it's in today.
Wouldn't it be great if all countries' health services were better funded than all of those militaries! Just goes to show much the world spends on killing people.
A large military budget is a good way to recycle cash
Id like all those GP 's back in the national Heath service as one of my reforms .
Payment at GP walk in as per dentist ( means tested of course ) if the complaint is found to not needing a further hospital appointments
Merge fire brigades with Ambulance crews .
Large GP at units at Hospitals.
charge for any cosmetic or minor issues like ear wax
More depth of cover on weekends at GP and A/E has to be a 7 day service now including things like x ray appointments.
Move to greater NHS App use for appointment making , updates .
Charges raised for A&E arrivals due to self responsibility ie drunkenness , fighting .
Priority A& E units away for the drunks for real emergencies
Motorist found guilty of dangerous driving levied an emergency call out service fine on top of the normal court one.
Anyone going to address my point about american healthcare costing 2.5x - 3x per person for worse outcomes and 70 million people not being able to access it?
It's incredible that people here are advocating for privatised healthcare, honestly future generations in addition to millenials and Gen Z are going to look at this time period and wonder what the hell older people were thinking. You seem hell bent on selling every asset the UK has.
What's your solution? Priviatise it and ensure 1/3 of the country can access no form of healthcare? If you get cancer, tough you lose your home?
The NHS is one of the few good things in the UK and people like you would sell it for magic beans if you had the chance. Our population is getting older so of course more needs to be spent on the NHS, we need to adapt our tax accordingly.
According to many right wingers I've spoken to the more billionaires in a country the better off it is. Well we have more billionaires than ever but we seem to be struggling in every single area. Strange that.
We continue to avoid doing the incredibly obvious solution in taxing the mega wealthy more. Until that happens we will continue to see all the problems we're currently seeing.
Although I believe in a publicly funded health service, you do cite rather radical examples of private healthcare.
The point of the NHS is that it's free at the point of use. Some services could be provided privately and it doesnt change that, the same way that contracted out waste collection doesnt mean you are charged extra for bin collection. Also, there are more examples than just the US and the UK, which are two extreme examples really.
As long as it's free at the point of use, I dont greatly care if some services are provided by the private sector tbh, if it improves service
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