Would Labour Risk Reversing The Rwandan Solution

[jon1959]

What is the left wing policy on immigration? Historically free movement of people has been a right-wing policy akin to the free market. (See America for most of its history) For most of the last century left wing societies in Europe didn't let you move abroad - many required government permission to move cities even.

I don't think it's a left/right thing. It's about finding a solution that works and at the very least a solution that doesn't sub-contract out the process to global human trafficking gangs to enrichen themselves by providing the service.

I agree though that many Labour voters are not particularly "left wing". And nor should they be. Most people just want a decent society and dont really care which ideological branch of this social science provides it. It's as relevant as religious doctrine to the majority of people.

And thank f**k for that. Imagine how awful the world would be if everyone spoke like we do on here

From your posts on here I assume you have a different view of what 'a decent society' looks like than I do.

Values and political positions flow from that.

Confederate slave owners, Stalinist functionaries and Middle England cheerleaders for Enoch Powell all told themselves they were in favour of 'a decent society'.

But very different interpretations of decency.

[Claude Blue]

From your posts on here I assume you have a different view of what 'a decent society' looks like than I do.

Values and political positions flow from that.

Confederate slave owners, Stalinist functionaries and Middle England cheerleaders for Enoch Powell all told themselves they were in favour of 'a decent society'.

But very different interpretations of decency.

Same with the old mantra of "common sense", it means different things to different people.

It's a nice catch all for the hard of thinking.

[JamesWales]

From your posts on here I assume you have a different view of what 'a decent society' looks like than I do.

Values and political positions flow from that.

Confederate slave owners, Stalinist functionaries and Middle England cheerleaders for Enoch Powell all told themselves they were in favour of 'a decent society'.

But very different interpretations of decency.

Ah, but this is where you are wrong, and it's a mistake many make. My view of a decent society will be almost identical to yours; good schools, good healthcare free at the point of use, a strong economy, low crime, a compassionate and caring welfare state for people to ensure they aren't destitute, a society where people work and play together, trust each other and do to others as they would have done to themselves etc etc etc. Barring a few tweaks (for example I value immaterial wealth more than many do) I suspect our outcomes are near identical, and they would be for 90% of people.

The difference is in how we think they are best achieved, and within that, the difference comes from the fact that I am not ideological. I will take what may be considered a 'left wing' solution where it works (for example in govt intervention on the economy) or what may be considered a 'right wing' solution where it works (for example in enforcing a fair immigration system).

I would suggest that you take more of an ideological as opposed to pragmatic position on things in an almost religious fashion - I briefly went to church as a kid, but for me the closest I got to a form of religion was in my younger days in various socialist movements where the adherence to doctrine was absolute - no variation was possible. When you are in that state of mind, the problems simply cannot operate outside of that doctrine.

So it becomes impossible to fathom a situation where asylum is taken advantage of for example. Or it becomes impossible to imagine that problems may exist within the NHS for example, even if in some cases understanding that is key to solving the problem.

I am sure we all agree that Britain should have a generous and fair immigration system but equally we understand we cant just house everyone that wants to come to the UK. Well the current system is broken. The most physically fit typically make it. It rewards those who throw away ID, it rewards criminal gangs, it punishes those who apply legally. We have people taking legal action to prevent the removal of hardened criminals who are foreign nationals. It's not working, for us or for anyone else and people should be open minded to recognising that and that what they perceive as their own decency may actually be exploited.

[Doucas]

Ah, but this is where you are wrong, and it's a mistake many make. My view of a decent society will be almost identical to yours; good schools, good healthcare free at the point of use, a strong economy, low crime, a compassionate and caring welfare state for people to ensure they aren't destitute, a society where people work and play together, trust each other and do to others as they would have done to themselves etc etc etc. Barring a few tweaks (for example I value immaterial wealth more than many do) I suspect our outcomes are near identical, and they would be for 90% of people.

The difference is in how we think they are best achieved, and within that, the difference comes from the fact that I am not ideological. I will take what may be considered a 'left wing' solution where it works (for example in govt intervention on the economy) or what may be considered a 'right wing' solution where it works (for example in enforcing a fair immigration system).

I would suggest that you take more of an ideological as opposed to pragmatic position on things in an almost religious fashion - I briefly went to church as a kid, but for me the closest I got to a form of religion was in my younger days in various socialist movements where the adherence to doctrine was absolute - no variation was possible. When you are in that state of mind, the problems simply cannot operate outside of that doctrine.

So it becomes impossible to fathom a situation where asylum is taken advantage of for example. Or it becomes impossible to imagine that problems may exist within the NHS for example, even if in some cases understanding that is key to solving the problem.

I am sure we all agree that Britain should have a generous and fair immigration system but equally we understand we cant just house everyone that wants to come to the UK. Well the current system is broken. The most physically fit typically make it. It rewards those who throw away ID, it rewards criminal gangs, it punishes those who apply legally. We have people taking legal action to prevent the removal of hardened criminals who are foreign nationals. It's not working, for us or for anyone else and people should be open minded to recognising that and that what they perceive as their own decency may actually be exploited.

Why is it every single self proclaimed enlightened centrist turns out to be pretty right wing under the slightest bit of scrutiny.

[JamesWales]

Why is it every single self proclaimed enlightened centrist turns out to be pretty right wing under the slightest bit of scrutiny.

Thanks for illustrating my point so promptly.

[Doucas]

Thanks for illustrating my point so promptly.

But you say you don't care if it's left or right if it works. We've had an extreme right wing government for 12 years and literally everything is getting worse and every single post you make is defending it.

You site poor examples such as minimum wage going up while completely failing to understand that inflation has increased by far more so this shows that what you've said about following the best ideas as being compelte rubbish.

[JamesWales]

But you say you don't care if it's left or right if it works. We've had an extreme right wing government for 12 years and literally everything is getting worse and every single post you make is defending it.

You site poor examples such as minimum wage going up while completely failing to understand that inflation has increased by far more so this shows that what you've said about following the best ideas as being compelte rubbish.

Extreme right wing government for 12 years? That's a ridiculous statement and you know it. Pretty offensive to those in history that have genuinely suffered under extreme right-wing governments.

You aren't right on the one example given either- Minimum wage has increased at well above the rate of inflation in the last few years (and rightly so)O

[cyril evans awaydays]

It's interesting though. I was just pondering the successful extremes we have had in government in my lifetime. Probably from the left it was Harold Wilson's governments in the 70s. On the right Thatcher's 2nd administration after she purged the "wets" with Norman "on your bike" Tebbit took some beating.

I can't think of anything else that matches the cynical crowd we have today though, how about you?

[Doucas]

Extreme right wing government for 12 years? That's a ridiculous statement and you know it. Pretty offensive to those in history that have genuinely suffered under extreme right-wing governments.
(and rightly so)O

So you're just going to ignore austerity deaths, covid deaths (right wing countries had worse death rate than lefts ones) nevermind the dramatic increase in poverty over the past 12 years then?

[Elwood Blues]

But you say you don't care if it's left or right if it works. We've had an extreme right wing government for 12 years and literally everything is getting worse and every single post you make is defending it.

You site poor examples such as minimum wage going up while completely failing to understand that inflation has increased by far more so this shows that what you've said about following the best ideas as being compelte rubbish.

Calling our admittedly right wing leaning government (at least on certain matters) an extreme right wing government is a bit ,well, extreme!