| + Visit Cardiff FC for Latest News, Transfer Gossip, Fixtures and Match Results |
Not really the same thing though is it, membership of a group and affinity with a political party. Depending on "how much" of a Tory, Labourite or whatever you are, your belief in what they stand for can be a fundamental part of what kind of person you areOriginally Posted by JamesWales
Of course. Just like being a protestant in Northern Ireland is an integral part of many peoples beliefs and identity. Fair enough.
However, if you then turn around and say you would be upset or angry if little Billy married Siobhan cos she's a catholic, then that would probably make you a bigot.
I agree. But that is a different thing from support for a political party. I am bemused by people (including many of my family and friends) who have an irrational belief in the supernatural or affiliation to a religious organisation. But I'm not upset or angry. If however someone close to me decided to adopt or accept the core beliefs of a political organisation that I despise - I would be upset.
I don't think it is a problem though, it is a symptom of a society that allows people to think and act freely within a set of laws, some views will be different to yours, some will appear extreme. Some will cross a boundary when it comes to the way they present their views because they feel passionately about them.
Fwiw I have absolutely no skin in the game on trans rights, it is completely beyond me to even formulate an opinion so I just try and avoid it and not upset people. Just because I think you are a plum for falling for obvious government dogwhistling about 'wokeness' doesn't actually mean I agree with what these people are saying, I also probably don't disagree.
Okay, what if a child of yours was getting cozy with a white supremacist. You would be all fine and dandy with that I presume?
The first sentence in your second paragraph sets out my feelings exactly on the subject.
The amount of people in the UK who are petrified of 'wokeness' over things like climate change, poverty and increasing inequality is terrifying to me.
I don't understand how so many can't see they're being manipulated into a 'culture war' by the elite so that we look the other way from how much we're being robbed.
Are women born with a penis is all I need to know politicians are struggling to give a straight yes or no ??
I still think it's different. If Siobhan is quietly practicing her religion then she's not impacting or hurting anybody else, whereas who you vote for can speak to your core values
There is an irony in this thread that certain posters are completely oblivious of.
Whilst this is true, you really should not foister your own ideas on anyone else - that's fascism in its truest sense. You should encourage your own children to engage in critical thinking, but to be able to express themselves and articulate themselves in their own individual way.
Should a parent dislike their child marrying someone who follows a different political party, then I'd argue that individual isn't fit to be a parent.
If I have read this correctly, and please correct me if I am wrong, but if a family member or close friend decided to hold a different viewpoint than your own, you would be upset?
You are wrong. Different viewpoints are great - about all sorts of things. But - for example - if a close friend or relative started to hang out with the BNP or adopted white supremacist views or put a poster of Jacob Rees-Mogg up in their hallway, I would be upset.
In my opinion it is the people who would not be upset by that who have a problem.
My best mates support different football teams - fine. Family members vote for many different parties - mostly fine. Friends or family who endorse racist or mysoginistic or reactionary policies and ‘values’ - not fine.
I would probably maintain my relationship and argue with them constantly. But for you and others to be offended by someone in that situation being upset (an emotion) is very disturbing. Even more so when you label the rejection of reactionary or oppressive views as fascistic! Don’t you have any boundaries?
This is different from what you said earlier. You said, quite clearly, that if anyone voted Tory or UKIP or BNP you'd be upset. There are a myriad of reasons why people vote for The Tories or UKIP (not the BNP of course), and many of those reasons don't fall into the narrative you have provided above. We can all agree that any form of bigotry is wrong, and that includes prejudging a persons entire character based on a party that they support at an election (unless it is the BNP or Social Workers Party or other equally dangerous fringe lunatics).
You also start a post with "you are wrong". That's rarely the mark of an open and tolerant mind.
Let me put it to you another way, what would it take to convince you that someone who votes Tory (or previously UKIP) isn't a racist?
Therein lies the rub. Many people don't practice their religion quietly. A case in point is the nut jobs in the USA rolling back what we consider to be fundamental rights. Who knew the handmaid's tale was an instruction manual?
I was answering your previous opening line where you said ‘I may be wrong….’
I admit to being intolerant of some political views. Proudly intolerant. I do not ever want to be tolerant of reactionary opinion, and especially not the policies and actions that come from that.
I have never said that all Tory or UKIP voters are racist. Some aren’t.
And just to ensure you are fully triggered, I have no problem at all with the SWP. Fine upstanding people even if they are hopelessly wrong about ‘state capitalism’ in the former degenerated and deformed workers states.
Now I’m off to the Tesco clothing thread where the real political debate is raging!
Hatred and harm in a country that is recognised as a tolerant and inclusive one .
When does this moaning end ?
There's a far bit of hatred just on this board with" kill the tories" and other vile comments.
It seems to me folk have a lot of hatred spouted from keyboards.
It certainly doesn't end at single, male refugees that's for sure.
Who on here says "kill the tories" and means it? I've seen it used by a right wing snowflake (sure there's more of them than there are left wing ones - look how hysterical the Tory right got last week when Tobias Elwood suggested the UK tried to rejoin the single market), presumably in an ironic way, who posts on here, but that's about it as far as I can see - maybe some who hate the tories so much don't recognise your claim that we are a "tolerant and inclusive country"?
tolerant isn't the good word you think it is. Tolerance infers a grudging acceptance, rather that an innate desire.
Correct me if I am wrong, but what you are saying is that you can't take at face value what anyone posts on this forum, and when they posts are made that are derogatory, the poster doesn't necessarily mean it.
What? I don’t understand what your getting at. The only person I can remember posting “kill the Tories” is that poster called native hipster or something like that - a look at his posting history will tell you it is very unlikely that he’s being serious in saying that.
A religious belief is also associated with core values. Either way, the problem with bigots is that they typically misinterpret someones core values. So they may fear Catholics because they think they want to impose the pope on them, or they fear muslims because they want to impose sharia law.
Or they fear Labour voters because they want to make the country communist, or, in Jon1959's case; he fears Tories because of his own interpretation of what they represent. But the Tory manifesto advocated gay rights, fulfilling a referendum result, support for jobs, economic growth, liberalism, all the rest of it.
The overwhelming majority of Tory and Labour voters are perfectly reasonable and good people. To hate them for it is not reasonable.
In my opinion, unquestionably Jon 1959 fits the bill of being a bigot. By his own definition he fits the description perfectly. The difference is, he thinks that his bigotry is acceptable, but then that is also a defining characteristic of all bigots.
Thanks for that. As expected a case study in misuse of language and smug posturing for effect. Go on then, I will bite.
To be clear I do not ‘fear’ Tories - I respect a few but dislike their core values and their policies. Some I despise (along with a few in other parties). My dislike comes from what they do and say and my experience of them over a lifetime - not for the place or culture they were born into.
That is not bigotry.
Your position is once again one where you get offended if someone will not follow your twisted version of ‘even handedness’. You know - flat earthers views as valid as astronomers, white supremacists views as valid as anti racists. That nonsense mixed up with knee jerk defence of the government in any thread where they are challenged or ridiculed is your signature response.
To get away from your distortion of terms like bigotry remember the word that started this was ‘upset’. Many things are upsetting - from A&E waiting times to cup final penalty misses, but upset is certainly justified if someone close to me chooses to adopt a set of political beliefs or cultures that I have spent my life campaigning against.
That may make me intolerant of selfish individualism or Little Englander nationalism - I’ll take that happily. Intolerance is not bigotry.
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote