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Thread: This flight to Rwanda

  1. #376

    Re: This flight to Rwanda

    Quote Originally Posted by JamesWales View Post
    Shocking as it may seem, but different people have different concerns, and are capable of thinking about more than one thing at once. I think it's reasonable to object to what's been happening tbh.
    i-m not sure what you mean, sorry.

  2. #377

    Re: This flight to Rwanda

    We have ridden roughshod all over the world , raping and pillaging

    Look at the spread of the commonwealth and the colonies of Spain, France, Belgium etc

    No wonder people from Africa and other places fleeing violence or looking for a better life are attracted to the UK and Europe

    It's all very well using the cheap labour for the west indies and Asia and Eastern Europe when we need them but if they want to come when times are less prosperous we have to something better than stick em on a plane over to Rwanda

  3. #378
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    Re: This flight to Rwanda

    Quote Originally Posted by JamesWales View Post
    I'm amazed that this thread has descended into:

    1 - some actual racism
    2 - lots of accusations of racism
    3 - zero solutions
    Morning Jimbo.

    I don't see anything "amazing" about 1 and 2. In fact, 2 occurring as a result of 1 is clearly logical and expected.

    What I am amazed by is everyone just letting you get away with your nutty critique of the Rwanda disgrace by implicitly claiming it's acceptable because nobody has a "better" alternative. You know and I know that is BS.

    Evaluate the policy at hand on its merits alone. The Rwanda disgrace is completely unacceptable on so many levels.

  4. #379

    Re: This flight to Rwanda

    Quote Originally Posted by az city View Post
    Morning Jimbo.

    I don't see anything "amazing" about 1 and 2. In fact, 2 occurring as a result of 1 is clearly logical and expected.

    What I am amazed by is everyone just letting you get away with your nutty critique of the Rwanda disgrace by implicitly claiming it's acceptable because nobody has a "better" alternative. You know and I know that is BS.

    Evaluate the policy at hand on its merits alone. The Rwanda disgrace is completely unacceptable on so many levels.
    Absolutely.

    Talking about a separate issue, it is often thought that Wales gets a bad deal from the UK in terms of the Barnett formula, dished out by England. My solution is to burn and kill every Englishman. Some might be outraged, but nobody has a better alternative, this should seem perfectly acceptable.....

  5. #380

    Re: This flight to Rwanda

    Quote Originally Posted by az city View Post
    Morning Jimbo.

    I don't see anything "amazing" about 1 and 2. In fact, 2 occurring as a result of 1 is clearly logical and expected.

    What I am amazed by is everyone just letting you get away with your nutty critique of the Rwanda disgrace by implicitly claiming it's acceptable because nobody has a "better" alternative. You know and I know that is BS.

    Evaluate the policy at hand on its merits alone. The Rwanda disgrace is completely unacceptable on so many levels.
    No it isn't. Calling a burglar a burglar is legitimate. Calling everyone a burglar isn't. It is perfectly legitimate to object to the current state of affairs, and think it's a policy worth trying. As usual, the language of those who oppose it is hyperbolic and defamatory to mask an absence of any viable alternative.

    Why is it BS? This isn't kindergarten, or some lecture theatre where rich lecturers preach theories to rich students. This is real life. Adults should be able to discuss a policy and come up with solutions.

    The current situation benefits rich migrants from safe countries over those perhaps more in need from warzones. It enriches criminal gangs who rarely use their proceeds for good causes and places a significant burden on the UK taxpayer to house, feed and process a presumably almost limitless number of people.

    So yes, offer an alternative solution if you are so determined that this policy is wrong.

  6. #381

    Re: This flight to Rwanda

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric the Half a Bee View Post
    Absolutely.

    Talking about a separate issue, it is often thought that Wales gets a bad deal from the UK in terms of the Barnett formula, dished out by England. My solution is to burn and kill every Englishman. Some might be outraged, but nobody has a better alternative, this should seem perfectly acceptable.....
    Except, many people have viable alternatives, such as renegiating the Barnett formula is probably a better deal, and is doable. Of course, Wales actually gets significantly more than it puts in from the UK central pot. Not that that makes every element of the Barnett formula ideal. Scotland gets a much better deal of course.

  7. #382

    Re: This flight to Rwanda

    Quote Originally Posted by JamesWales View Post
    Except, many people have viable alternatives, such as renegiating the Barnett formula is probably a better deal, and is doable. Of course, Wales actually gets significantly more than it puts in from the UK central pot. Not that that makes every element of the Barnett formula ideal. Scotland gets a much better deal of course.
    There we are. Kill the English. We still don't have a viable alternative.

  8. #383

    Re: This flight to Rwanda

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric the Half a Bee View Post
    There we are. Kill the English. We still don't have a viable alternative.
    Good one.

  9. #384

    Re: This flight to Rwanda

    Quote Originally Posted by JamesWales View Post
    Good one.
    Diolch

  10. #385

    Re: This flight to Rwanda

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric the Half a Bee View Post
    Diolch
    No worries. You have totally stumped us all with your fantastic analogy.

  11. #386

    Re: This flight to Rwanda

    Quote Originally Posted by JamesWales View Post
    I'm amazed that this thread has descended into:

    1 - some actual racism
    2 - lots of accusations of racism
    3 - zero solutions
    Explain what the problem you are seeking a solution for again.

  12. #387

    Re: This flight to Rwanda

    Quote Originally Posted by cyril evans awaydays View Post
    Explain what the problem you are seeking a solution for again.
    Illegal immigration, exploitation of the asylum system, criminal gangs, dangerous crossings, cost of dealing with it all when the country has enormous domestic problems of its own, potential sowing of discord as a result of the above.

  13. #388

    Re: This flight to Rwanda

    Quote Originally Posted by JamesWales View Post
    Illegal immigration, exploitation of the asylum system, criminal gangs, dangerous crossings, cost of dealing with it all when the country has enormous domestic problems of its own, potential sowing of discord as a result of the above.
    Interesting that at not any point have you made any consideration for those trying to get here.

  14. #389

    Re: This flight to Rwanda

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric the Half a Bee View Post
    Interesting that at not any point have you made any consideration for those trying to get here.
    I perfectly well understand that many people in many parts of the world have undergone a lot of suffering and have every empathy for them. That doesn't mean that anyone who wants to come to the UK is entitled to do that, less still that they do it via payments to criminal gangs that only the wealthiest of them can afford.

    Do you think everyone with cancer in the world should be treated on the NHS? I doubt you do, but that doesn't mean you don't have empathy for their situation.

  15. #390

    Re: This flight to Rwanda

    Quote Originally Posted by JamesWales View Post
    No it isn't. Calling a burglar a burglar is legitimate. Calling everyone a burglar isn't. It is perfectly legitimate to object to the current state of affairs, and think it's a policy worth trying. As usual, the language of those who oppose it is hyperbolic and defamatory to mask an absence of any viable alternative.

    Why is it BS? This isn't kindergarten, or some lecture theatre where rich lecturers preach theories to rich students. This is real life. Adults should be able to discuss a policy and come up with solutions.

    The current situation benefits rich migrants from safe countries over those perhaps more in need from warzones. It enriches criminal gangs who rarely use their proceeds for good causes and places a significant burden on the UK taxpayer to house, feed and process a presumably almost limitless number of people.

    So yes, offer an alternative solution if you are so determined that this policy is wrong.
    Isn't the obvious alternative just to make the legal route better? The fact that the vast majority of people entering illegally would obtain asylum status legally should tell you that the legal system is too slow or too hard to access. So speed it up or make it easier to access. Does this policy fix that? If not then all you are ensuring is to reduce the number of asylum seekers we take as a country.

    The reason people use hyperbolic language to describe the policy is because unfortunately in relative terms, this is an extreme response and for a lot of people, crosses into uncomfortable territory. Which begs the question, how extreme would Patel's policy need to be for you to think it wasn't 'worth trying'? Presumably you have a line over which we shouldn't step. What if this deterrent doesn't work, how would you step it up a notch?

  16. #391

    Re: This flight to Rwanda

    Quote Originally Posted by JamesWales View Post
    Illegal immigration, exploitation of the asylum system, criminal gangs, dangerous crossings, cost of dealing with it all when the country has enormous domestic problems of its own, potential sowing of discord as a result of the above.
    Illegal immigrants are obviously different to asylum seekers that require completely different solutions, yet you bundle them both together. There were 50k asylum seekers last year. That's about a third of the number of people who have come in from the Ukraine and Hong Kong without a whisper. When you started on this quest it was all about ridding the world of traffickers. Still true colours!

  17. #392

    Re: This flight to Rwanda

    Quote Originally Posted by JamesWales View Post
    I perfectly well understand that many people in many parts of the world have undergone a lot of suffering and have every empathy for them. That doesn't mean that anyone who wants to come to the UK is entitled to do that, less still that they do it via payments to criminal gangs that only the wealthiest of them can afford.
    It is fantastic news that you are so keen to limit the inherent advantages that the wealthy have, have you thought about how we could extend that into domestic policy.

  18. #393

    Re: This flight to Rwanda

    Quote Originally Posted by cyril evans awaydays View Post
    Illegal immigrants are obviously different to asylum seekers that require completely different solutions, yet you bundle them both together. There were 50k asylum seekers last year. That's about a third of the number of people who have come in from the Ukraine and Hong Kong without a whisper. When you started on this quest it was all about ridding the world of traffickers. Still true colours!
    I have mentioned criminal gangs, have I not?

  19. #394

    Re: This flight to Rwanda

    Quote Originally Posted by JamesWales View Post
    Illegal immigration, exploitation of the asylum system, criminal gangs, dangerous crossings, cost of dealing with it all when the country has enormous domestic problems of its own, potential sowing of discord as a result of the above.
    Oh good that one is a biggy, so what are the scores on the doors? Just fill in the blanks for me please:


    Total Cost now : ___________

    Estimated Cost of new policy: ____________


    Don't worry, I will be able to work out the saving, A in maths at GCSE me.

  20. #395

    Re: This flight to Rwanda

    Quote Originally Posted by JamesWales View Post
    I have mentioned criminal gangs, have I not?
    It was in there somewhere. Well done you!

  21. #396

    Re: This flight to Rwanda

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Cartman View Post
    It is fantastic news that you are so keen to limit the inherent advantages that the wealthy have, have you thought about how we could extend that into domestic policy.
    Yes, through the wealthy paying more tax. The top rate of income tax now is higher than it was a few years ago. And the persona allowance is now around £12,500 - much higher.

  22. #397

    Re: This flight to Rwanda

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Cartman View Post
    Oh good that one is a biggy, so what are the scores on the doors? Just fill in the blanks for me please:


    Total Cost now : ___________

    Estimated Cost of new policy: ____________


    Don't worry, I will be able to work out the saving, A in maths at GCSE me.
    How can we possibly know, because as things stand people support an infinite number of people arriving. Cost estimates we have heard are around £5m a day on hotels alone; let alone other issues.

    Do you think the country is a bottomless pit?

  23. #398

    Re: This flight to Rwanda

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Cartman View Post
    Isn't the obvious alternative just to make the legal route better? The fact that the vast majority of people entering illegally would obtain asylum status legally should tell you that the legal system is too slow or too hard to access. So speed it up or make it easier to access. Does this policy fix that? If not then all you are ensuring is to reduce the number of asylum seekers we take as a country.

    The reason people use hyperbolic language to describe the policy is because unfortunately in relative terms, this is an extreme response and for a lot of people, crosses into uncomfortable territory. Which begs the question, how extreme would Patel's policy need to be for you to think it wasn't 'worth trying'? Presumably you have a line over which we shouldn't step. What if this deterrent doesn't work, how would you step it up a notch?
    Not necessarily, because that could lead to very high numbers, as there are an awful lot of political opponents or people otherwise eligible for asylum in many countries who may wish to make Britain home.

    Without some kind of rules and sensible management, the situation quickly becomes totally unsustainable and the public lose faith, especially when they are facing financial crisis of their own.

    In answer to your question, I think this is a pretty unprecedented situation that requires a pretty unprecedented solution. I would support the UK taking more from warzones or proper channels. It's the means they arrive and our inability to do anything about it that is the issue

    It amazes me how people see no issue at all. Naivity causes a lot of it I guess, and the fact a lot of people want the current govt to fail so are content for any crisis to help do that.

  24. #399

    Re: This flight to Rwanda

    Quote Originally Posted by JamesWales View Post
    How can we possibly know, because as things stand people support an infinite number of people arriving. Cost estimates we have heard are around £5m a day on hotels alone; let alone other issues.

    Do you think the country is a bottomless pit?
    We aren't talking about 'as things stand', we are talking about the effect this policy is going to have, isn't it supposed to be a deterrent and therefore reduce illegal crossings? Surely it is pretty simple to forecast a best/worst case scenario and project cost based on that? Do you wonder why they haven't produced and published that alongside the policy?

    Surely you need to see this before you decide whether it is a good idea. Would you support this policy even if it ends up costing more?

  25. #400

    Re: This flight to Rwanda

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Cartman View Post
    We aren't talking about 'as things stand', we are talking about the effect this policy is going to have, isn't it supposed to be a deterrent and therefore reduce illegal crossings? Surely it is pretty simple to forecast a best/worst case scenario and project cost based on that? Do you wonder why they haven't produced and published that alongside the policy?

    Surely you need to see this before you decide whether it is a good idea. Would you support this policy even if it ends up costing more?
    If a policy doesn't work you cease doing it. What we know at the moment is that the current situation doesn't work.

    If we are unable to do anything about anyone arriving here, then we theoretically are open to accepting anyone who wants to come here, which is completely unsustainable. You have to have rules and planning in place; whether it's to manage capacity on roads, or surgeries or schools or people. Those in the most need should receive it alongside other countries who offer the same, but that is not what is happening here. It is not the most in need; it the wealthiest and those in an already safe country.

    Anyway, I'm tired, and it's time for me to join you guys in dreamland ;) x

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