Train strike on opening day of the season

[Tuerto]

I don't disagree with you at all.

I'm just recognising it happened, and recognising it was the right thing to do. The furlough scheme etc should be supported across the political spectrum, so recognising who delivered it and how is the right thing to do.

And thats the context of the train strikes - that industry and workers has benefitted from that extraordinary support, and otherwise, at the passenger levels we saw in 2020/21, there would have been no money to pay their wages.

Thats my point, thats the difference and why I don't support these strikes.

I suppose it depends on how you define Support. There was no option, there was no way that the Government could have done anything else. We would have had people dying, homeless, kids getting severely unwell, the vulnerable not receiving support from Family members etc. Could you imagine what would have happened if the Government hadn't acted? It really doesn't bear thinking about. We would be dealing with a disaster that no Government would recover from politically. The Tories had no choice, and i'd say the same about any political party.

[lardy]

I'm sure there was a loose plan for what happens in the event of a pandemic as there is if there was a nuclear strike on the UK, or if the UK was invaded or if an asteroid hit earth.

But all plans go out the back door when something happens and you can never fully know a scenario. Covid took the world by surprise.

That said, we could have prepared more, I agree, and we should have locked down a little earlier (although it would have made no difference long term) but given the fact the country did lock down, furlough was created, a vaccine delivered within a year etc does show a fairly quick moving state to me.

The UK had a very strong pandemic plan (UK Influenza Preparedness Strategy 2011). Other countries adopted it. There was also a simulation exercise (Exercise Cygnus) in 2016 that lasted three days.

FOI requests and legal action have been underway for the last couple of years to find out why much of this was not put into action in early 2020.

Here's one article which focuses on the ventilator shortage, but plenty more can be found.

https://www.newstatesman.com/politic...event-pandemic

[JamesWales]

The UK had a very strong pandemic plan (UK Influenza Preparedness Strategy 2011). Other countries adopted it. There was also a simulation exercise (Exercise Cygnus) in 2016 that lasted three days.

FOI requests and legal action have been underway for the last couple of years to find out why much of this was not put into action in early 2020.

Here's one article which focuses on the ventilator shortage, but plenty more can be found.

https://www.newstatesman.com/politic...event-pandemic

That article is from 16th March 2020. Been a lot happened since then.

Which countries did adopt the plan? Would be interesting to see their death rates compared to ours now.

[JamesWales]

I suppose it depends on how you define Support. There was no option, there was no way that the Government could have done anything else. We would have had people dying, homeless, kids getting severely unwell, the vulnerable not receiving support from Family members etc. Could you imagine what would have happened if the Government hadn't acted? It really doesn't bear thinking about. We would be dealing with a disaster that no Government would recover from politically. The Tories had no choice, and i'd say the same about any political party.

Again, I don't disagree. I'm not saying the government did some unbelievable and unique thing that no other country thought of. I'm saying they did what they had to, but that doesn't mean it wasn't right, and we can't acknowledge it was right, and that without it many jobs would ceased to have existed.

There are things the government got wrong and things they got right. It's not unreasonable to acknowledge that.

I just think the rail industry is one of those industries that wouldnt have been able to sustain jobs without that support (paid by us and our kids) and that this changes things in terms of strike action now. At least for me it does. My default position is to support a strike, as people don't do it lightly, but I don't support this.

[the other bob wilson]

Absolutely, but something like Covid would have been planned for ,there would have been legislation in place, there would have been scenarios made up with action plans and all that.

Planned for, but was it acted upon?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exercise_Cygnus

[lardy]

That article is from 16th March 2020. Been a lot happened since then.

Which countries did adopt the plan? Would be interesting to see their death rates compared to ours now.

https://www.ghsindex.org/wp-content/...rity-Index.pdf

This shows the UK ranked second in the world for pandemic preparedness in 2019


Singapore is one country who adopted the UK plan.

"This is despite the country having a good pandemic plan that other countries have apparently copied. Martin Hibberd, professor of emerging infectious diseases at the London School of Hygiene & Tropical Medicine, who worked with Singapore on its pandemic preparedness in 2003 and 2009, told the Times on Sunday on 19 April that Singapore basically copied the UK’s plan. “But the difference is they actually implemented it,” he said."

https://www.researchprofessionalnews...iew-lead-says/

[chrisp_1927]

This strike is for the rail workers, excluding drivers. The average railway worker earns less than £30k.

The reason drivers earn good money is down to strong unions.

Surely a win for the working man is a win for all of us.

The strike on the 30th is the drivers. The rest of us are out on the 27th. Totally agree with the rest of the post, it's about time working people got a payrise

[llan bluebird]

I believe the train unions know they are bluffing with a pair of two's.

High wind, snow, sun warnings, and obviously Covid have cemented the WFH shift for the administration & professional workers and they are the chief users of trains, they won't bring the country to a standstill

Outside of London and one or two big cities, very few people catch a train to work.

The reduction in city centers footfall will help the reduction in inflation as retail sales are a key contributor to the RPI calculation.

Sadly the bark is more fierce than the bite

[llan bluebird]

I believe the train unions know they are bluffing with a pair of two's.

High wind, snow, sun warnings, and obviously Covid have cemented the WFH shift for the administration & professional workers and they are the chief users of trains, they won't bring the country to a standstill

Outside of London and one or two big cities, very few people catch a train to work.

The reduction in city centers footfall will help the reduction in inflation as retail sales are a key contributor to the RPI calculation.

Sadly the bark is more fierce than the bite

meant to say "Outside of London and one or two big cities, very few people catch a train to work in a factory or even hospitals"

[life on mars]

Train drivers are overpaid , and that effects the folk below them ,it actually suppress their wage growth .

The drivers should take a 3/5 % cut to fund the folk who will never earn their wages to difference is appalling and slightly elitist in its make up as are the wages /pay package of the top union officials .
,strikes and non sustainable pensions , it will fall as did for car workers , dockers, steel , miners , manufacturing based industry , resulting in in poorly paid or automated jobs and pensions for the next generation ( even Mr Drakeford is planning a Metro automated service , which won't have over 50 /65k driver wages )

Useful read https://assets.publishing.service.go...ort-system.pdf

Commuters are spending up to five times as much of their salary on season tickets compared to the rest of Europe, a new study has revealed.

Guards on are 31k - 35k

Average train driver salary is £59,864/yr to 65K https://www.cashfloat.co.uk/blog/per...driver-salary/

Train Driver salaries at London Underground £60,319 - £64,561 per year.

[Tuerto]

Train drivers are overpaid , and that effects the folk below them ,it actually suppress their wage growth .

The drivers should take a 3/5 % cut to fund the folk who will never earn their wages to difference is appalling and slightly elitist in its make up as are the wages /pay package of the top union officials .
,strikes and non sustainable pensions , it will fall as did for car workers , dockers, steel , miners , manufacturing based industry , resulting in in poorly paid or automated jobs and pensions for the next generation ( even Mr Drakeford is planning a Metro automated service , which won't have over 50 /65k driver wages )

Useful read https://assets.publishing.service.go...ort-system.pdf

Commuters are spending up to five times as much of their salary on season tickets compared to the rest of Europe, a new study has revealed.

Guards on are 31k - 35k

Average train driver salary is £59,864/yr to 65K https://www.cashfloat.co.uk/blog/per...driver-salary/

Train Driver salaries at London Underground £60,319 - £64,561 per year.

Good, and it's not life changing money either. Why do you attack workers? People who you would have grown up with, shared a pint with, met their families, kids etc? These Train drivers and the men and women that you should relate to. Then you cover your sad arse by making out that you give a **** about the people on less than the train drivers, in an attempt to justify your Anti Worker stance. I really don't get you, born without a pot to piss in, your words Brother, the state probably saved you, good old socialism, yet you attack working class people for trying to get a decent deal. You're ****ed up.

[HiVis]

No, I'm saying it got much worse, having generally reduced since 2008.

These are facts. You can't dispute them anymore than you can claim City beat Liverpool in the 2012 league cup final

The debt hasn't reduced since 2008. The deficit has (prior to covid)

[HiVis]

The mass increase in debt in the last 3 years is entirely down to Covid yes. Govt debt to GDP rapidly increased from 2008, peaked in 2016 and then reduced. It's jumped hugely since 2020 to fund covid support

I'm not sure how debt can reduce when we've been running a deficit since 2001?

[Lither_1927]

I'm not sure how debt can reduce when we've been running a deficit since 2001?

High inflation and low interest rates would erode the debt wouldn't it? Economics not my forte but i think that's correct.

[Eric the Half a Bee]

High inflation and low interest rates would erode the debt wouldn't it? Economics not my forte but i think that's correct.

I guess inflation would make the debt worth less. We've not had high inflation until recently. In fact, inflation has been rather low for most of the last decade. So low that, once the deficit is added on, debt has grown by much more than the rate of inflation

[Lither_1927]

I guess inflation would make the debt worth less. We've not had high inflation until recently. In fact, inflation has been rather low for most of the last decade. So low that, once the deficit is added on, debt has grown by much more than the rate of inflation

We've had quitè high inflation since the first round of Quantative Easing in 2008 haven't we?

[WJ99mobile]

Can’t you be on both sides of the coin for this one?

Can’t you say that from the outside pay and conditions in rail are already pretty favourable in comparison to some others (like teachers and nurses for example) without being a bootlicker

And can you also say that the rail strikes are a burden without being anti worker?

And by the same measure just because we’re in debt as a country still support people asking for a pay rise if they are actually underpaid

[HiVis]

High inflation and low interest rates would erode the debt wouldn't it? Economics not my forte but i think that's correct.

when inflation is more than interest rates that would be correct, however for the most part inflation has been on or around 2% and gilt rates slightly more, so in real terms the debt hasn't reduced.

What JamesWales is trying to say is that, prior to the pandemic, debt as a percentage of GDP started to fall.

[Vindec]

More parking difficulties on 30th.

[Vindec]

when inflation is more than interest rates that would be correct, however for the most part inflation has been on or around 2% and gilt rates slightly more, so in real terms the debt hasn't reduced.

What JamesWales is trying to say is that, prior to the pandemic, debt as a percentage of GDP started to fall.

In theory but in practice high inflation leads to high wage demands which is inflationary. When I studied economics more than 50 years ago it was said that the best way to deal with inflation was to have high unemployment. I didn't get it then and don't now but hope we don't return to the days when people opt to go on the dole as a lifestyle choice.

[Dave St]

All they are doing is trying to protect thier very over the top wages. W**ers the lot of them! just be greatful! nurses saving lives earn less than twice that amount. tends to be the stupid deadbeat no brainers who work the rails anyway!

[Doucas]

All they are doing is trying to protect thier very over the top wages. W**ers the lot of them! just be greatful! nurses saving lives earn less than twice that amount. tends to be the stupid deadbeat no brainers who work the rails anyway!

I'll never understand this argument. Instead of saying they should be paid less, why aren't you saying nurses should be paid more? How the media in this country have convinced the right that teachers, nurses, railway workers and others working normal jobs that they are the enemy ill never know. Seems to be a huge correlation yet again between education levels and falling for whatever the daily mail says.

[chrisp_1927]

All they are doing is trying to protect thier very over the top wages. W**ers the lot of them! just be greatful! nurses saving lives earn less than twice that amount. tends to be the stupid deadbeat no brainers who work the rails anyway!

I can't really comment on if I'm a deadbeat no brainer or not, I'm slightly biased. But I can assure you that the vast majority of my colleagues certainly aren't w*nkers or deadbeat no brainers . They tend to be a pretty decent bunch .

I would make a comment on what your message suggests about your personality. I'm going to let you off though, as jealousy is a very destructive emotion and I can see that you are suffering.

[JamesWales]

I'll never understand this argument. Instead of saying they should be paid less, why aren't you saying nurses should be paid more? How the media in this country have convinced the right that teachers, nurses, railway workers and others working normal jobs that they are the enemy ill never know. Seems to be a huge correlation yet again between education levels and falling for whatever the daily mail says.

Basic economics Doucus. You pay every nurse twice as much then it costs the NHS billions more. That means more borrowing and repayment costs, or more tax out of your pocket, which means you spend less on goods, which means companies lay off people supplying those goods which means greater welfare payments..and the circle goes on.

Everyone wants everyone to be paid more, but it has to be done sustainably, and if you just do it across the board then you gain nothing as costs will match it.

The irony on the train strikes, is that you have been one of the most vocal keen to work from home on those debates, and thats what is decimating the rail industry.

Perhaps you should look at your own actions, first?

[Its been emotional]

Are rail workers really overpaid? Why shouldn't they be paid the wages they are on?
Or do their wages look over inflated compared to nurses, police, firemen, teachers etc who have not had a payrise for 10years or more.
With the majority of these skilled profession's now deciding to leave their industry's and join the railway.
They should be on the same or if not more instead of pointing the finger and 'saying they shouldn't be on that much money'
So why shouldn't they be paid what they have negotiated over the years with more often selling terms and conditions to get what they are earning these days.
So without comparing them to other industries, Why are they on too much money?