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Thread: I Hate Keir Starmer - Tom Whyman - Gawker

  1. #21

    Re: I Hate Keir Starmer - Tom Whyman - Gawker

    Quote Originally Posted by life on mars View Post
    I will never vote Labour again .
    Why? You have no idea what is going to happen tomorrow and what your priorities will be.

    This is as myopic as those who say they'll never vote Tory.

  2. #22

    Re: I Hate Keir Starmer - Tom Whyman - Gawker

    Imagine if we had an election without the weight of the billionaire owned newspapers and media hammering Corbyn because he was the only one who would have genuinely changed things for the better.

    Starmer is a liar and I'll void my vote before voting for him, may as well have another five years of conservatives if he gets in charge.

  3. #23

    Re: I Hate Keir Starmer - Tom Whyman - Gawker

    Quote Originally Posted by Doucas View Post
    Imagine if we had an election without the weight of the billionaire owned newspapers and media hammering Corbyn because he was the only one who would have genuinely changed things for the better.

    Starmer is a liar and I'll void my vote before voting for him, may as well have another five years of conservatives if he gets in charge.
    Sadly your last paragraph is why we end up with Conservative governments.

    The newspapers and media have always hammered Labour, Corbyn was in no way unique in this - apart from giving them plenty of ammunition.

    Perhaps you can afford a continuous Conservative government, millions can't. If you thought Johnson was bad just you wait for Truss or Sunak. Truss has already stated that her priority is tax cuts and that there will be no further "handouts" (her words) and Sunak has already shown his true colours as a reverse Robin Hood.

    But Starmer won't give you everything you want so to hell with the poorest and most vulnerable in our society. May I suggest you wait and see what Labour proposes for what should be an emergency budget in the autumn and for the next GE?

  4. #24

    Re: I Hate Keir Starmer - Tom Whyman - Gawker

    Quote Originally Posted by life on mars View Post
    I will never vote Labour again .
    Not even if they espouse exactly the same things as they did when you previously voted for them?

  5. #25

    Re: I Hate Keir Starmer - Tom Whyman - Gawker

    Quote Originally Posted by Taunton Blue Genie View Post
    Not even if they espouse exactly the same things as they did when you previously voted for them?
    I think it goes deeper and it's personal. My guess is he applied to be a Labour Councillor and was turned down or something of that ilk.

  6. #26

    Re: I Hate Keir Starmer - Tom Whyman - Gawker

    Quote Originally Posted by Claude Blue View Post
    Sadly your last paragraph is why we end up with Conservative governments.

    The newspapers and media have always hammered Labour, Corbyn was in no way unique in this - apart from giving them plenty of ammunition.

    Perhaps you can afford a continuous Conservative government, millions can't. If you thought Johnson was bad just you wait for Truss or Sunak. Truss has already stated that her priority is tax cuts and that there will be no further "handouts" (her words) and Sunak has already shown his true colours as a reverse Robin Hood.

    But Starmer won't give you everything you want so to hell with the poorest and most vulnerable in our society. May I suggest you wait and see what Labour proposes for what should be an emergency budget in the autumn and for the next GE?
    I agree. Increasingly, I’ve got little time for Starmer, but the Tories used to talk about putting “clear, blue water” between them and Labour, well this lot have put oceans of it between the two thanks in main to Johnson’s purge of some of the restraining elements on the One Nation wing of his party over Brexit (the nutters who complain about a “Remainers Brexit” are the driving force within the Conservatives now). Starmer’s not perfect, but his Government would not be like a mark 2 of this one - I would like to see Labour start to prove this by being more proactive about their own policies though.

  7. #27

    Re: I Hate Keir Starmer - Tom Whyman - Gawker

    Why do you guys believe that any Labour government is always better than a Tory one? I don't. I think sensible countries flick between centre-right and centre-left every ten years or so. Which is what makes Wales such an outlier.

    We've had a Labour government wholly in charge of education here for 23 years now. My kids currently going through the system, many others on here too. What is really better about it? The rhetoric is that Labour is better for poorer people, but is there that much evidence of that, certainly in terms of education anyway? Strikes me that if you are poorer then you have more life opportunities in England than Wales. Perhaps this idea that 'any labour govt will be better than Truss / Sunak' needs reconsidering?

    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-wales-politics-29688799

  8. #28

    Re: I Hate Keir Starmer - Tom Whyman - Gawker

    Quote Originally Posted by Claude Blue View Post
    Sadly your last paragraph is why we end up with Conservative governments.

    The newspapers and media have always hammered Labour, Corbyn was in no way unique in this - apart from giving them plenty of ammunition.

    Perhaps you can afford a continuous Conservative government, millions can't. If you thought Johnson was bad just you wait for Truss or Sunak. Truss has already stated that her priority is tax cuts and that there will be no further "handouts" (her words) and Sunak has already shown his true colours as a reverse Robin Hood.

    But Starmer won't give you everything you want so to hell with the poorest and most vulnerable in our society. May I suggest you wait and see what Labour proposes for what should be an emergency budget in the autumn and for the next GE?
    What will Starmer give though? He lied to become leader and has thrown out his ten pledges. He won't even stand with workers during protests. As far as I can tell there is no difference between him and the tories. Tell me, how will he make the lives of the poor and vulnerable better, be specific.

  9. #29

    Re: I Hate Keir Starmer - Tom Whyman - Gawker

    Quote Originally Posted by Doucas View Post
    What will Starmer give though? He lied to become leader and has thrown out his ten pledges. He won't even stand with workers during protests. As far as I can tell there is no difference between him and the tories. Tell me, how will he make the lives of the poor and vulnerable better, be specific.
    Re: the 10 pledges. There iittle point in being a socialism idealist, you need to be a pragmatist too. Many socialist cannot reconcile this. It's all well and good wanting socialist policies but they are only relevant if you get elected. We've seen time and again the UK electorate doesn't want socialism

    Starmer is a pragmatist social democrat and has amended his direction of travel because the world today is very different than in 2020.

    Albert Einstein said insanity doing the same thing over and over and expecting to get different results. Foot and Corbyn led labour to their worst ever election results, whilst Blair is the only Labour politician to win an election in nearly 50 years. This tells you which policies win elections.

    You can be part of driving some of the change you want, or you can ignore the reality on the ground and carry on with a tory government.

  10. #30

    Re: I Hate Keir Starmer - Tom Whyman - Gawker

    Quote Originally Posted by Doucas View Post
    What will Starmer give though? He lied to become leader and has thrown out his ten pledges. He won't even stand with workers during protests. As far as I can tell there is no difference between him and the tories. Tell me, how will he make the lives of the poor and vulnerable better, be specific.
    Despite Claude and myself having polarised views on Jeremy Corbyn and my general views being much more aligned to yours it seems I must agree with Claude on this issue.

    At this moment in time the objective of the vast majority of the country, apart from the cosseted rich, is to get rid of this dreadful Tory government. As much as I adored Jeremy Corbyn and would love to see radical left wing policies put in place, unfortunately I can see that the general public won't buy into that (at the moment).

    To be honest Starmer's tacit mandate is to appear as distanced from JC and left wing philosophy as possible just to unseat the Tories. To my mind, considering the catastrophically bad administration we've suffered for too long it is priority number one to oust these Tories and unfortunately you have to play them at their own game.

    It's morally wrong and repulsive to me that Starmer doesn't publically stand with the strikers but this is a time for pragmatism not principle I'm afraid. Starmer is a poor Labour leader in my opinion but if he can at least allow the party to get a foothold in government I'm prepared to grit my teeth and cut him some slack. Hopefully, if we can get into power we can begin the process of educating the public to accept policies more conducive to their own well being.

  11. #31

    Re: I Hate Keir Starmer - Tom Whyman - Gawker

    I'm sorry but if nobody can tell me how he's different from the tories, or how the specifics about how he will help workers or the vulnerable I simply can't vote for him. To me he is a tory.

  12. #32

    Re: I Hate Keir Starmer - Tom Whyman - Gawker

    Quote Originally Posted by Dorcus View Post
    Despite Claude and myself having polarised views on Jeremy Corbyn and my general views being much more aligned to yours it seems I must agree with Claude on this issue.

    At this moment in time the objective of the vast majority of the country, apart from the cosseted rich, is to get rid of this dreadful Tory government. As much as I adored Jeremy Corbyn and would love to see radical left wing policies put in place, unfortunately I can see that the general public won't buy into that (at the moment).

    To be honest Starmer's tacit mandate is to appear as distanced from JC and left wing philosophy as possible just to unseat the Tories. To my mind, considering the catastrophically bad administration we've suffered for too long it is priority number one to oust these Tories and unfortunately you have to play them at their own game.

    It's morally wrong and repulsive to me that Starmer doesn't publically stand with the strikers but this is a time for pragmatism not principle I'm afraid. Starmer is a poor Labour leader in my opinion but if he can at least allow the party to get a foothold in government I'm prepared to grit my teeth and cut him some slack. Hopefully, if we can get into power we can begin the process of educating the public to accept policies more conducive to their own well being.
    This sounds a bit sinister..

    Wales has been Labour run since 1999. What is better here? How far down the line of being educated are we?

    "Hopefully, if we can get into power we can begin the process of educating the public to accept policies more conducive to their own well being."

  13. #33
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    Re: I Hate Keir Starmer - Tom Whyman - Gawker

    Quote Originally Posted by DryCleaning View Post
    Re: the 10 pledges. There iittle point in being a socialism idealist, you need to be a pragmatist too. Many socialist cannot reconcile this. It's all well and good wanting socialist policies but they are only relevant if you get elected. We've seen time and again the UK electorate doesn't want socialism

    Starmer is a pragmatist social democrat and has amended his direction of travel because the world today is very different than in 2020.

    Albert Einstein said insanity doing the same thing over and over and expecting to get different results. Foot and Corbyn led labour to their worst ever election results, whilst Blair is the only Labour politician to win an election in nearly 50 years. This tells you which policies win elections.

    You can be part of driving some of the change you want, or you can ignore the reality on the ground and carry on with a tory government.
    You seem to be agreeing with Claude's view of the 10 Pledges as 'nonsense', and that it was smart politics by Starmer to tell the party one thing - only 30 months ago - and then renege on every one of his promises. I disagree. It is just dishonest and unprincipled. It is perfectly possible to be pragmatic and principled at the same time.

    The 10 Pledges were not some radical socialist programme that would lead to failure at the ballot box. They were all about social democratic mainstream policies, uniting the party, and (as he elaborated on his pitch) using the 2017 election manifesto as the starting point for a Labour programme for government.

    The 2017 manifesto was popular. Its individual policy offers scored well in opinion polls and focus groups. When 'blind tested' most people backed them. Corbyn failed in 2017 (Labour 40% to Tories 43%) but secured the highest Labour GE vote in 51 years. Instead of building on that Starmer has taken Labour back to the worst of Blair - without the charisma, the energy or the worked through policies.

  14. #34

    Re: I Hate Keir Starmer - Tom Whyman - Gawker

    Quote Originally Posted by jon1959 View Post
    You seem to be agreeing with Claude's view of the 10 Pledges as 'nonsense', and that it was smart politics by Starmer to tell the party one thing - only 30 months ago - and then renege on every one of his promises. I disagree. It is just dishonest and unprincipled. It is perfectly possible to be pragmatic and principled at the same time.

    The 10 Pledges were not some radical socialist programme that would lead to failure at the ballot box. They were all about social democratic mainstream policies, uniting the party, and (as he elaborated on his pitch) using the 2017 election manifesto as the starting point for a Labour programme for government.

    The 2017 manifesto was popular. Its individual policy offers scored well in opinion polls and focus groups. When 'blind tested' most people backed them. Corbyn failed in 2017 (Labour 40% to Tories 43%) but secured the highest Labour GE vote in 51 years. Instead of building on that Starmer has taken Labour back to the worst of Blair - without the charisma, the energy or the worked through policies.
    Come off it Jon, you're old enough to know how politics works. Just like Truss and Sunak now, Starmer had to appeal to a selectorate in order to win the leadership. That mean't having to go along with a lot of the 2017 and 2019 manifestos, despite the party losing both elections. He may or may not apply them to the party's manifesto next time. Hopefully the party draws up that manifesto based on what is relevant and practical for that time - not x number of years ago.

    I do get fed up of the nonsense about the 2017 GE. The facts are simple, the Labour party lost. The Tories got, if memory serves, a million more votes than Labour. Theresa May ran the worst Tory campaign in living memory and still Corbyn lost to her. Stacking up votes in already safe seats will not give you a majority, nor will targeting certain high profile Tory MP's seats for vanity and attention seeking reasons c.f. the ridiculous Owen Jones "flash bombing" Boris Johnsons Uxbridge constituency.

    WRT the popular policies narrative, you will, I'm sure, be aware that whilst popular individually that popularity diminishes when they're all put together as voters start to question practicalities and, above all, the cost.

    The 2019 manifesto was the 2017 one on steroids with further spending commitments added during the campaign and the party was humiliated.

  15. #35

    Re: I Hate Keir Starmer - Tom Whyman - Gawker

    Quote Originally Posted by jon1959 View Post
    You seem to be agreeing with Claude's view of the 10 Pledges as 'nonsense', and that it was smart politics by Starmer to tell the party one thing - only 30 months ago - and then renege on every one of his promises. I disagree. It is just dishonest and unprincipled. It is perfectly possible to be pragmatic and principled at the same time.

    The 10 Pledges were not some radical socialist programme that would lead to failure at the ballot box. They were all about social democratic mainstream policies, uniting the party, and (as he elaborated on his pitch) using the 2017 election manifesto as the starting point for a Labour programme for government.

    The 2017 manifesto was popular. Its individual policy offers scored well in opinion polls and focus groups. When 'blind tested' most people backed them. Corbyn failed in 2017 (Labour 40% to Tories 43%) but secured the highest Labour GE vote in 51 years. Instead of building on that Starmer has taken Labour back to the worst of Blair - without the charisma, the energy or the worked through policies.
    I'm not agreeing that the 10 pledges were nonsense, and i dont believe CB was either. I'm saying that a manifesto defined pre covid may not be relevant today. You don't have to be blessed with too much intelligence to understand this.

    You would prefer to stick with your ideals and that's your prerogative. But ideals don't win elections, policies and manifestos have to be grounded in realism if you want to win over the electorate

  16. #36
    International jon1959's Avatar
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    Re: I Hate Keir Starmer - Tom Whyman - Gawker

    Quote Originally Posted by Claude Blue View Post
    The 2019 manifesto was the 2017 one on steroids with further spending commitments added during the campaign and the party was humiliated.
    The 2019 manifesto was the 2017 one buried under an incoherent 'cop out' Brexit 'policy'.

    It was balanced in that it pissed off Remainers and Leavers equally. Remind me who was the author of that policy? Not the Shadow Brexit Secretary, surely? That nice Keir Starmer? Corbyn has to take final responsibility as leader, but as is clear from the Forde Report amongst other sources, he was not in control of the PLP or Labour officials.

    And whilst we're throwing the 'on steroids' label about - it certainly applies to the media abuse of Corbyn. There is no way that his treatment by the media was the norm for Labour leaders - it was on steroids and more.

    He may have brought some of that on himself - although I doubt we will agree on when and how that happened - but it was way off the scale of what any other Labour leader ever got. I suppose the world has changed with the arrival of mass social media, but a simple comparison of newspaper front pages makes it clear enough.

  17. #37

    Re: I Hate Keir Starmer - Tom Whyman - Gawker

    Quote Originally Posted by jon1959 View Post
    The 2019 manifesto was the 2017 one buried under an incoherent 'cop out' Brexit 'policy'.

    It was balanced in that it pissed off Remainers and Leavers equally. Remind me who was the author of that policy? Not the Shadow Brexit Secretary, surely? That nice Keir Starmer? Corbyn has to take final responsibility as leader, but as is clear from the Forde Report amongst other sources, he was not in control of the PLP or Labour officials.

    And whilst we're throwing the 'on steroids' label about - it certainly applies to the media abuse of Corbyn. There is no way that his treatment by the media was the norm for Labour leaders - it was on steroids and more.

    He may have brought some of that on himself - although I doubt we will agree on when and how that happened - but it was way off the scale of what any other Labour leader ever got. I suppose the world has changed with the arrival of mass social media, but a simple comparison of newspaper front pages makes it clear enough.
    Who would you like to see at the helm, Jon?

  18. #38
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    Re: I Hate Keir Starmer - Tom Whyman - Gawker

    Quote Originally Posted by Swiss Peter View Post
    Who would you like to see at the helm, Jon?
    If the Labour Party remains a 'broad church social democratic party' with organisational, political and financial roots in the trade union movement, I would be happy to see a unity leader who could draw support from all sides like Andy Burnham. He is of the 'soft left' as I think it was once called, is experienced in Westminster (Cabinet and Shadow Cabinet), refused to take part in the Chicken Coup against Corbyn, and has shown the scope for local/regional political and social action as Mayor of Greater Manchester. I think he has credibility, experience and the skills needed to hold the PLP and wider Labour Party together.

    Burnham can't stand at the moment under the current rules as he isn't an MP. I would also prefer to see Labour finally electing a woman as leader. But I think he is the best bet.

    The Labour left don't have any obvious candidates. Some have the same strengths and weaknesses as Corbyn (great campaigners and communicators with live audiences, but poor as party managers or at the Westminster ritual). I like Clive Lewis, Dawn Butler and a wider group of younger (often black and female) Campaign Group MPs - but they don't tick enough boxes to survive.

    If the FPTP system is dumped for PR, and at the same time Labour cuts its ties to the trades union movement, my automatic support for Labour would be gone. In that situation I would back the British Melenchon - whoever that might be.

  19. #39

    Re: I Hate Keir Starmer - Tom Whyman - Gawker

    Quote Originally Posted by jon1959 View Post
    If the Labour Party remains a 'broad church social democratic party' with organisational, political and financial roots in the trade union movement, I would be happy to see a unity leader who could draw support from all sides like Andy Burnham. He is of the 'soft left' as I think it was once called, is experienced in Westminster (Cabinet and Shadow Cabinet), refused to take part in the Chicken Coup against Corbyn, and has shown the scope for local/regional political and social action as Mayor of Greater Manchester. I think he has credibility, experience and the skills needed to hold the PLP and wider Labour Party together.

    Burnham can't stand at the moment under the current rules as he isn't an MP. I would also prefer to see Labour finally electing a woman as leader. But I think he is the best bet.

    The Labour left don't have any obvious candidates. Some have the same strengths and weaknesses as Corbyn (great campaigners and communicators with live audiences, but poor as party managers or at the Westminster ritual). I like Clive Lewis, Dawn Butler and a wider group of younger (often black and female) Campaign Group MPs - but they don't tick enough boxes to survive.

    If the FPTP system is dumped for PR, and at the same time Labour cuts its ties to the trades union movement, my automatic support for Labour would be gone. In that situation I would back the British Melenchon - whoever that might be.
    Thanks for the response. Interesting to read.

  20. #40

    Re: I Hate Keir Starmer - Tom Whyman - Gawker

    Quote Originally Posted by jon1959 View Post
    I would also prefer to see Labour finally electing a woman as leader.
    I have to ask why? Surely you want the best person for the role, and that may be a man or woman.

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