I Hate Keir Starmer - Tom Whyman - Gawker

[HiVis]

What will Starmer give though? He lied to become leader and has thrown out his ten pledges. He won't even stand with workers during protests. As far as I can tell there is no difference between him and the tories. Tell me, how will he make the lives of the poor and vulnerable better, be specific.

Re: the 10 pledges. There iittle point in being a socialism idealist, you need to be a pragmatist too. Many socialist cannot reconcile this. It's all well and good wanting socialist policies but they are only relevant if you get elected. We've seen time and again the UK electorate doesn't want socialism

Starmer is a pragmatist social democrat and has amended his direction of travel because the world today is very different than in 2020.

Albert Einstein said insanity doing the same thing over and over and expecting to get different results. Foot and Corbyn led labour to their worst ever election results, whilst Blair is the only Labour politician to win an election in nearly 50 years. This tells you which policies win elections.

You can be part of driving some of the change you want, or you can ignore the reality on the ground and carry on with a tory government.

[jon1959]

Re: the 10 pledges. There iittle point in being a socialism idealist, you need to be a pragmatist too. Many socialist cannot reconcile this. It's all well and good wanting socialist policies but they are only relevant if you get elected. We've seen time and again the UK electorate doesn't want socialism

Starmer is a pragmatist social democrat and has amended his direction of travel because the world today is very different than in 2020.

Albert Einstein said insanity doing the same thing over and over and expecting to get different results. Foot and Corbyn led labour to their worst ever election results, whilst Blair is the only Labour politician to win an election in nearly 50 years. This tells you which policies win elections.

You can be part of driving some of the change you want, or you can ignore the reality on the ground and carry on with a tory government.

You seem to be agreeing with Claude's view of the 10 Pledges as 'nonsense', and that it was smart politics by Starmer to tell the party one thing - only 30 months ago - and then renege on every one of his promises. I disagree. It is just dishonest and unprincipled. It is perfectly possible to be pragmatic and principled at the same time.

The 10 Pledges were not some radical socialist programme that would lead to failure at the ballot box. They were all about social democratic mainstream policies, uniting the party, and (as he elaborated on his pitch) using the 2017 election manifesto as the starting point for a Labour programme for government.

The 2017 manifesto was popular. Its individual policy offers scored well in opinion polls and focus groups. When 'blind tested' most people backed them. Corbyn failed in 2017 (Labour 40% to Tories 43%) but secured the highest Labour GE vote in 51 years. Instead of building on that Starmer has taken Labour back to the worst of Blair - without the charisma, the energy or the worked through policies.

[Claude Blue]

You seem to be agreeing with Claude's view of the 10 Pledges as 'nonsense', and that it was smart politics by Starmer to tell the party one thing - only 30 months ago - and then renege on every one of his promises. I disagree. It is just dishonest and unprincipled. It is perfectly possible to be pragmatic and principled at the same time.

The 10 Pledges were not some radical socialist programme that would lead to failure at the ballot box. They were all about social democratic mainstream policies, uniting the party, and (as he elaborated on his pitch) using the 2017 election manifesto as the starting point for a Labour programme for government.

The 2017 manifesto was popular. Its individual policy offers scored well in opinion polls and focus groups. When 'blind tested' most people backed them. Corbyn failed in 2017 (Labour 40% to Tories 43%) but secured the highest Labour GE vote in 51 years. Instead of building on that Starmer has taken Labour back to the worst of Blair - without the charisma, the energy or the worked through policies.

Come off it Jon, you're old enough to know how politics works. Just like Truss and Sunak now, Starmer had to appeal to a selectorate in order to win the leadership. That mean't having to go along with a lot of the 2017 and 2019 manifestos, despite the party losing both elections. He may or may not apply them to the party's manifesto next time. Hopefully the party draws up that manifesto based on what is relevant and practical for that time - not x number of years ago.

I do get fed up of the nonsense about the 2017 GE. The facts are simple, the Labour party lost. The Tories got, if memory serves, a million more votes than Labour. Theresa May ran the worst Tory campaign in living memory and still Corbyn lost to her. Stacking up votes in already safe seats will not give you a majority, nor will targeting certain high profile Tory MP's seats for vanity and attention seeking reasons c.f. the ridiculous Owen Jones "flash bombing" Boris Johnsons Uxbridge constituency.

WRT the popular policies narrative, you will, I'm sure, be aware that whilst popular individually that popularity diminishes when they're all put together as voters start to question practicalities and, above all, the cost.

The 2019 manifesto was the 2017 one on steroids with further spending commitments added during the campaign and the party was humiliated.

[jon1959]

The 2019 manifesto was the 2017 one on steroids with further spending commitments added during the campaign and the party was humiliated.

The 2019 manifesto was the 2017 one buried under an incoherent 'cop out' Brexit 'policy'.

It was balanced in that it pissed off Remainers and Leavers equally. Remind me who was the author of that policy? Not the Shadow Brexit Secretary, surely? That nice Keir Starmer? Corbyn has to take final responsibility as leader, but as is clear from the Forde Report amongst other sources, he was not in control of the PLP or Labour officials.

And whilst we're throwing the 'on steroids' label about - it certainly applies to the media abuse of Corbyn. There is no way that his treatment by the media was the norm for Labour leaders - it was on steroids and more.

He may have brought some of that on himself - although I doubt we will agree on when and how that happened - but it was way off the scale of what any other Labour leader ever got. I suppose the world has changed with the arrival of mass social media, but a simple comparison of newspaper front pages makes it clear enough.

[Swiss Peter]

The 2019 manifesto was the 2017 one buried under an incoherent 'cop out' Brexit 'policy'.

It was balanced in that it pissed off Remainers and Leavers equally. Remind me who was the author of that policy? Not the Shadow Brexit Secretary, surely? That nice Keir Starmer? Corbyn has to take final responsibility as leader, but as is clear from the Forde Report amongst other sources, he was not in control of the PLP or Labour officials.

And whilst we're throwing the 'on steroids' label about - it certainly applies to the media abuse of Corbyn. There is no way that his treatment by the media was the norm for Labour leaders - it was on steroids and more.

He may have brought some of that on himself - although I doubt we will agree on when and how that happened - but it was way off the scale of what any other Labour leader ever got. I suppose the world has changed with the arrival of mass social media, but a simple comparison of newspaper front pages makes it clear enough.

Who would you like to see at the helm, Jon?

[Claude Blue]

The 2019 manifesto was the 2017 one buried under an incoherent 'cop out' Brexit 'policy'.

It was balanced in that it pissed off Remainers and Leavers equally. Remind me who was the author of that policy? Not the Shadow Brexit Secretary, surely? That nice Keir Starmer? Corbyn has to take final responsibility as leader, but as is clear from the Forde Report amongst other sources, he was not in control of the PLP or Labour officials.

And whilst we're throwing the 'on steroids' label about - it certainly applies to the media abuse of Corbyn. There is no way that his treatment by the media was the norm for Labour leaders - it was on steroids and more.

He may have brought some of that on himself - although I doubt we will agree on when and how that happened - but it was way off the scale of what any other Labour leader ever got. I suppose the world has changed with the arrival of mass social media, but a simple comparison of newspaper front pages makes it clear enough.

I agree with you on the Brexit policy, it was a mess. The party was totally cornered by Brexit with the majority being remainers but a hardcore of hard left members supporting a ridiculous and fanciful "Lexit." IMHO this last group included Corbyn, who I believe was disingenuous in his support of remain. As you have alluded to, Corbyn had no control over the party and any party lacking strong leadership is doomed to fail.

Yes, Corbyn was treated appallingly by most of the media but he did bring a lot on to himself with documented comments and associations. Often clipped and exaggerated but that's what happens to Labour leaders. His recent comments about Ukraine shows clearly that he was never fit to lead the Labour Party or be PM. WTF is he doing speaking to a Lebanon TV station with links to Iran and the Assad regime in Syria?

[Dorcus]

What will Starmer give though? He lied to become leader and has thrown out his ten pledges. He won't even stand with workers during protests. As far as I can tell there is no difference between him and the tories. Tell me, how will he make the lives of the poor and vulnerable better, be specific.

Despite Claude and myself having polarised views on Jeremy Corbyn and my general views being much more aligned to yours it seems I must agree with Claude on this issue.

At this moment in time the objective of the vast majority of the country, apart from the cosseted rich, is to get rid of this dreadful Tory government. As much as I adored Jeremy Corbyn and would love to see radical left wing policies put in place, unfortunately I can see that the general public won't buy into that (at the moment).

To be honest Starmer's tacit mandate is to appear as distanced from JC and left wing philosophy as possible just to unseat the Tories. To my mind, considering the catastrophically bad administration we've suffered for too long it is priority number one to oust these Tories and unfortunately you have to play them at their own game.

It's morally wrong and repulsive to me that Starmer doesn't publically stand with the strikers but this is a time for pragmatism not principle I'm afraid. Starmer is a poor Labour leader in my opinion but if he can at least allow the party to get a foothold in government I'm prepared to grit my teeth and cut him some slack. Hopefully, if we can get into power we can begin the process of educating the public to accept policies more conducive to their own well being.

[JamesWales]

Despite Claude and myself having polarised views on Jeremy Corbyn and my general views being much more aligned to yours it seems I must agree with Claude on this issue.

At this moment in time the objective of the vast majority of the country, apart from the cosseted rich, is to get rid of this dreadful Tory government. As much as I adored Jeremy Corbyn and would love to see radical left wing policies put in place, unfortunately I can see that the general public won't buy into that (at the moment).

To be honest Starmer's tacit mandate is to appear as distanced from JC and left wing philosophy as possible just to unseat the Tories. To my mind, considering the catastrophically bad administration we've suffered for too long it is priority number one to oust these Tories and unfortunately you have to play them at their own game.

It's morally wrong and repulsive to me that Starmer doesn't publically stand with the strikers but this is a time for pragmatism not principle I'm afraid. Starmer is a poor Labour leader in my opinion but if he can at least allow the party to get a foothold in government I'm prepared to grit my teeth and cut him some slack. Hopefully, if we can get into power we can begin the process of educating the public to accept policies more conducive to their own well being.

This sounds a bit sinister..

Wales has been Labour run since 1999. What is better here? How far down the line of being educated are we?

"Hopefully, if we can get into power we can begin the process of educating the public to accept policies more conducive to their own well being."

[Doucas]

I'm sorry but if nobody can tell me how he's different from the tories, or how the specifics about how he will help workers or the vulnerable I simply can't vote for him. To me he is a tory.

[HiVis]

You seem to be agreeing with Claude's view of the 10 Pledges as 'nonsense', and that it was smart politics by Starmer to tell the party one thing - only 30 months ago - and then renege on every one of his promises. I disagree. It is just dishonest and unprincipled. It is perfectly possible to be pragmatic and principled at the same time.

The 10 Pledges were not some radical socialist programme that would lead to failure at the ballot box. They were all about social democratic mainstream policies, uniting the party, and (as he elaborated on his pitch) using the 2017 election manifesto as the starting point for a Labour programme for government.

The 2017 manifesto was popular. Its individual policy offers scored well in opinion polls and focus groups. When 'blind tested' most people backed them. Corbyn failed in 2017 (Labour 40% to Tories 43%) but secured the highest Labour GE vote in 51 years. Instead of building on that Starmer has taken Labour back to the worst of Blair - without the charisma, the energy or the worked through policies.

I'm not agreeing that the 10 pledges were nonsense, and i dont believe CB was either. I'm saying that a manifesto defined pre covid may not be relevant today. You don't have to be blessed with too much intelligence to understand this.

You would prefer to stick with your ideals and that's your prerogative. But ideals don't win elections, policies and manifestos have to be grounded in realism if you want to win over the electorate

[Doucas]

I'm sorry but if nobody can tell me how he's different from the tories, or how the specifics about how he will help workers or the vulnerable I simply can't vote for him. To me he is a tory.

I'm still waiting for this, I'd genuinely love to be wrong so please educate me!

[Dorcus]

I'm still waiting for this, I'd genuinely love to be wrong so please educate me!

I'll give it a shot. You're right he is no different from a Tory and the fact he hasn't ditched the silly handle "Sir" really grates with me. He would fit in to any moderately centre left Tory administration.

However, the overriding objective for the good of the vast majority of the country is to get rid of the present fascist government. Starmer's only job is to make Labour electable again and as we found with Blair and Brown the only possible way to do that is to tack to Tory lite.

Starmer isnt doing a bad job of things if you consider the polls are showing lukewarm support for Labour, largely due to the disaster the present administration has shown itself to be. Starmer doesn't have to be spectacular to improve Labours election chances. He just needs to distance himself from Corbyn as far as possible. I personally detest it but I would settle for anything but the Tories at the moment and then try to get the Left Wing doctrine across when we have a foothold in power.

Despite Starmer's many weaknesses any change of leadership campaign now might set our ambitions back much further. There will be a more opportune time for that in the future.

Hasta la victoria sempre!

[Doucas]

I'll give it a shot. You're right he is no different from a Tory and the fact he hasn't ditched the silly handle "Sir" really grates with me. He would fit in to any moderately centre left Tory administration.

However, the overriding objective for the good of the vast majority of the country is to get rid of the present fascist government. Starmer's only job is to make Labour electable again and as we found with Blair and Brown the only possible way to do that is to tack to Tory lite.

Starmer isnt doing a bad job of things if you consider the polls are showing lukewarm support for Labour, largely due to the disaster the present administration has shown itself to be. Starmer doesn't have to be spectacular to improve Labours election chances. He just needs to distance himself from Corbyn as far as possible. I personally detest it but I would settle for anything but the Tories at the moment and then try to get the Left Wing doctrine across when we have a foothold in power.

Despite Starmer's many weaknesses any change of leadership campaign now might set our ambitions back much further. There will be a more opportune time for that in the future.

Hasta la victoria sempre!

Thanks, but what does he stand for and how would he help workers and the vulnerable?

[Dorcus]

Thanks, but what does he stand for and how would he help workers and the vulnerable?

Yes concede on that one: I'm not sure he stands for anything really although I found his views on Brexit refreshing.

I doubt he would help any vulnerable and/or impoverished group apart from helping to hasten the demise of this current abomination. Totally agree he's no Socialist so he wouldn't get my endorsement otherwise.

[Doucas]

Yes concede on that one: I'm not sure he stands for anything really although I found his views on Brexit refreshing.

I doubt he would help any vulnerable and/or impoverished group apart from helping to hasten the demise of this current abomination. Totally agree he's no Socialist so he wouldn't get my endorsement otherwise.

Thanks for trying but this is why I can't vote for him, I don't know what he stands for, he's basically a tory and he's a proven liar. As far as I can tell nothing will change.

[Doucas]

A revolutionary policy by Starmer here.

Getting rid of pre-payment premiums which amounts to a poultry £43 a year. That's the best he has.

This country is utterly ****ed.

https://twitter.com/Keir_Starmer/sta...pxPyucpSA&s=19

[jon1959]

https://twitter.com/graceblakeley/st...34558393761792

The Labour leadership is hamstrung by its own rigid and incoherent ideology, based on two nonsensical dogmas:

1. If Jeremy Corbyn said it, we can’t say it.

2. We have to ‘balance the books’.

[Claude Blue]

https://twitter.com/graceblakeley/st...34558393761792

The Labour leadership is hamstrung by its own rigid and incoherent ideology, based on two nonsensical dogmas:

1. If Jeremy Corbyn said it, we can’t say it.

2. We have to ‘balance the books’.

Blimey Jon, you'll be quoting Owen Jones, Seamus Milne and Aaron Bastani next

[jon1959]

Blimey Jon, you'll be quoting Owen Jones, Seamus Milne and Aaron Bastani next

I probably will. My weakness is that I agree with them a lot of the time.

[Claude Blue]

I probably will. My weakness is that I agree with them a lot of the time.

I used to like OJ but latterly I do feel he's gone a bit crazy and I see him as just a grifter these days, hungry for clicks and likes.

The other two are all yours. One of Corbyns many failings was having a very poor group of advisors around him.

[Dorcus]

I used to like OJ but latterly I do feel he's gone a bit crazy and I see him as just a grifter these days, hungry for clicks and likes.

The other two are all yours. One of Corbyns many failings was having a very poor group of advisors around him.

A massive faiiling was his Brexit policy. Here was a wonderful man, adulated by the young, not championing the single most important issue of their lifetimes. Many looked upon him as a beacon of hope in distressing times but he failed to support them.

[HiVis]

A massive faiiling was his Brexit policy. Here was a wonderful man, adulated by the young, not championing the single most important issue of their lifetimes. Many looked upon him as a beacon of hope in distressing times but he failed to support them.

I thought Brexit policy under Corbyn was clear cut - the electorate decided on Brexit and therefore the electorate can choose the form of Brexit they want.

[Eric Cartman]

I thought Brexit policy under Corbyn was clear cut - the electorate decided on Brexit and therefore the electorate can choose the form of Brexit they want.

It was clear, you are correct. The ambiguity was a projection from Brexiteers onto Remainers, in essence 'come on then, tell us how we do it without wrecking everything?!', if they didn't, they were anti-British.

[JamesWales]

It was clear, you are correct. The ambiguity was a projection from Brexiteers onto Remainers, in essence 'come on then, tell us how we do it without wrecking everything?!', if they didn't, they were anti-British.

I don't recollect that. Nothing wrong whatsoever with people who voted Remain being involved in the formulation of ideas into the implementation of Brexit.

The issue always was with people who refused to accept the referendum result. It was a shameful position to take and a stupid one, because ultimately, from their perspective they made it worse, refusing to support May's Brexit and creating the conditions for Boris's

[Swiss Peter]

I don't recollect that. Nothing wrong whatsoever with people who voted Remain being involved in the formulation of ideas into the implementation of Brexit.

The issue always was with people who refused to accept the referendum result. It was a shameful position to take and a stupid one, because ultimately, from their perspective they made it worse, refusing to support May's Brexit and creating the conditions for Boris's

Groan. This bollocks again.