Top flight and second tier attendances

[The Lone Gunman]

Plenty of discussion on here in recent days about the Premier League and its effects on football in this country, with many contributors stating it's been a bad thing for various reasons. With that in mind, I thought I'd take a look at the average attendances for games in the top two divisions over the last sixty years.

I selected a sample of seven seasons from 1961/62 to present. I'll leave you to draw your own conclusions about the figures before adding my observations at a later stage.

The following are the average attendances for matches in the top flight in season 1961/62, then 1971/72, then 1981/82, etc:

61/62 - 26,107
71/72 - 31,313
81/82 - 22,555
91/92 - 22,076
01/02 - 34,324
11/12 - 34,602
21/22 - 39,580

Next are the averages for matches in the second tier during the same period:

61/62 - 16,130
71/72 - 14,652
81/82 - 10,282
91/92 - 11,481
01/02 - 15,240
11/12 - 17,749
21/22 - 16,879

Next are the combined averages for the top two divisions:

61/62 - 42,237
71/72 - 45,965
81/82 - 32,837
91/92 - 33,557
01/02 - 49,564
11/12 - 52,351
21/22 - 56,459

Cardiff City have spent nine seasons in the English top flight since the end of the Second World War. The following are the club's average attendances for each of those seasons, with the team's finishing position in brackets:

52/53 - 37,933 (12th)
53/54 - 32,410 (10th)
54/55 - 24,311 (20th)
55/56 - 26,624 (17th)
56/57 - 20,550 (21st)
60/61 - 23,390 (15th)
61/62 - 19,294 (21st)
13/14 - 27,429 (20th)
18/19 - 31,413 (18th)

A note of interest: in April 1962, the Bluebirds were scheduled to play two home games in the space of three days over the Easter weekend as they battled to avoid relegation to the Second Division. Their opponents were Birmingham City and West Ham United. Cardiff beat Birmingham 3-2 and West Ham 3-0. The crowds at Ninian Park for those two top-flight matches were just 8,608 and 11,274. By contrast, the attendances for the final two games of the 2018/19 Premier League campaign were 33,082 and 32,133.

[JamesWales]

Fact:
Unquestionably, attendances have risen since the Premier League was formed and this has occurred across all four divisions. This is an undeniably good thing, unless people want football to be some kind of weird cultish, niche pastime. So the Premier League may have grown the gap between the leagues, but every league is also stronger too. You can see all the data on this superb website (you'll need to click on England, but can check all leagues) http://european-football-statistics.co.uk/attn.htm

Unclear:
Would the rises have happened without the Premier League? Could they have occurred without some of the 'worst excesses' of the Premier League (ie, additional wealth, all seaters, high ticket prices, all the glitz and glamour etc)? Possibly so. It also happened in Germany and France and other countries. In the same time crowds have fallen elsewhere too (Italy) or stagnated (Spain). It's impossible to know, but whilst I suspect the Premier League contributed to it, I think football was changing anyway. Premier League helped to turn the page on Hooliganism, Heysel, Hillsborough etc.

Opinion:
Perfectly valid to think, irrespective of the above, that football is now less wholesome, less enjoyable, less meaningful and less fun than before. I'm probably inclined to agree, although I was only 11 when the Premier League started and for me personally the rebrand did far more damage to shake my childlike enthusiasm for football than the Premier League, but lets not go there..

Overall I think the German model is probably better. Perhaps we are slowly realising that and rectifying some things, with a form of terracing returning and the £30 away ticket price cap etc.

[The Lone Gunman]

Perfectly valid to think, irrespective of the above, that football is now less wholesome, less enjoyable, less meaningful and less fun than before.

And yet football in this country seems more popular than ever.

Glad you mentioned the lower divisions. I was going to include them in the analysis but it would have taken too long. However, I did look at the averages for the final season before the PL started compared to last season. For League One, it was an average of 5,422 in 1991/92 and 10,132 last season, and for League Two it was 3,243 in 1991/92 and 4,991 last season. The suggestion from many is that the pyramid is less competitive than ever, and yet a lot more people are going out to watch the competitions.

I was looking at some of City's attendances during the 'good old days' of the late-Seventies and early-Eighties. Dear me. The club's average for 1981/82 in the second tier was just 5,574. The smallest crowd that season was 3,239 - ironically for a 5-4 victory over Cambridge (I think it was played on a Saturday morning if memory serves). Can you imagine a crowd of three thousand for a Championship game at the CCS?

[TWGL1]

I guess the decline of Hooliganism has had a massive effect on the up shift in attendance’s as the demographic make-up of the crowds are vastly different to when I started to watch Cardiff.

I think there was only three girls I knew of who watched the city at the time. H.T from Lisvane , a casual from Manchester and a girl I worked with who still goes now.

I take my son and wife - who are season tickets holders , there is no chance I would have taken them years ago.

[Lither_1927]

And yet football in this country seems more popular than ever.

Glad you mentioned the lower divisions. I was going to include them in the analysis but it would have taken too long. However, I did look at the averages for the final season before the PL started compared to last season. For League One, it was an average of 5,422 in 1991/92 and 10,132 last season, and for League Two it was 3,243 in 1991/92 and 4,991 last season. The suggestion from many is that the pyramid is less competitive than ever, and yet a lot more people are going out to watch the competitions.

I was looking at some of City's attendances during the 'good old days' of the late-Seventies and early-Eighties. Dear me. The club's average for 1981/82 in the second tier was just 5,574. The smallest crowd that season was 3,239 - ironically for a 5-4 victory over Cambridge (I think it was played on a Saturday morning if memory serves). Can you imagine a crowd of three thousand for a Championship game at the CCS?

"More Popular " than ever? It's too simplistic to draw that conclusion based solely on attendances. It's Better attended due to marketing and possibly more leisure time. To test if it were actually more Popular, a more indepth study would need to be conducted. Based on fan satisfaction compared with now and how they felt say, 30 years ago.

[William Treseder’s Mam]

"More Popular " than ever? It's too simplistic to draw that conclusion based solely on attendances. It's Better attended due to marketing and possibly more leisure time. To test if it were actually more Popular, a more indepth study would need to be conducted. Based on fan satisfaction compared with now and how they felt say, 30 years ago.

Are there any words you actually understand the definition of?

[JamesWales]

And yet football in this country seems more popular than ever.

Glad you mentioned the lower divisions. I was going to include them in the analysis but it would have taken too long. However, I did look at the averages for the final season before the PL started compared to last season. For League One, it was an average of 5,422 in 1991/92 and 10,132 last season, and for League Two it was 3,243 in 1991/92 and 4,991 last season. The suggestion from many is that the pyramid is less competitive than ever, and yet a lot more people are going out to watch the competitions.

I was looking at some of City's attendances during the 'good old days' of the late-Seventies and early-Eighties. Dear me. The club's average for 1981/82 in the second tier was just 5,574. The smallest crowd that season was 3,239 - ironically for a 5-4 victory over Cambridge (I think it was played on a Saturday morning if memory serves). Can you imagine a crowd of three thousand for a Championship game at the CCS?

I agree with you. Football fans wear rose-tinted specs more enthusiastically than almost anyone else. You speak to some older City fans and every week Toshack scored a hatrick in front of 60,000 down Ninian Park.

I just think there are ways to improve the game more, and we could make it better without losing that massive increase in interest that we have seen.

For clarity, I think football is better since the premier league came about, but there are a few changes that would make it better still, that would perhaps include some rowing back on some of the elements that the premier league and additional money has bought.

[LeningradCowboy]

Fact:
Unquestionably, attendances have risen since the Premier League was formed and this has occurred across all four divisions. This is an undeniably good thing, unless people want football to be some kind of weird cultish, niche pastime. So the Premier League may have grown the gap between the leagues, but every league is also stronger too. You can see all the data on this superb website (you'll need to click on England, but can check all leagues) http://european-football-statistics.co.uk/attn.htm

Unclear:
Would the rises have happened without the Premier League? Could they have occurred without some of the 'worst excesses' of the Premier League (ie, additional wealth, all seaters, high ticket prices, all the glitz and glamour etc)? Possibly so. It also happened in Germany and France and other countries. In the same time crowds have fallen elsewhere too (Italy) or stagnated (Spain). It's impossible to know, but whilst I suspect the Premier League contributed to it, I think football was changing anyway. Premier League helped to turn the page on Hooliganism, Heysel, Hillsborough etc.

Opinion:
Perfectly valid to think, irrespective of the above, that football is now less wholesome, less enjoyable, less meaningful and less fun than before. I'm probably inclined to agree, although I was only 11 when the Premier League started and for me personally the rebrand did far more damage to shake my childlike enthusiasm for football than the Premier League, but lets not go there..

Overall I think the German model is probably better. Perhaps we are slowly realising that and rectifying some things, with a form of terracing returning and the £30 away ticket price cap etc.

Bayern Munich have won the Bundesliga for the last ten consecutive seasons in the German model.

[JamesWales]

Bayern Munich have won the Bundesliga for the last ten consecutive seasons in the German model.

Yes, I've talked elsewhere about that before, and that's a shame. I'm a big German football fan and I am desperate for someone else to win it.

But either way, I don't think it's because they have terracing at grounds, or more saturday afternoon kick offs or tickets for €20 etc.

[The Bloop]

The decline of terracing and restrictions post Hillsborough had an impact, as has the amount of grounds redeveloped, or rebuilt, since. The latter due to the advent of the Premier league and the amount of money going into the game at the top levels.

[az city]

Over the period 1961-2020 the UK population grew by 27.6%.

In Gunner's figures the combined average attendances grew by 33.6%.

I don't think the Premier League is explaining an awful lot of the rise in attendances.

[JamesWales]

It is clearly quite a crude measurement to only look at attendances, but another thing to consider is how close many clubs are atcapacity now, that didn't use to be the case.

Crowds in the 70s and 80s weren't really constrained by capacity bar for the odd big game, wheares now at least two thirds of premier league clubs more or less sell out every game. Even in the championship it's not uncommon to sell out.

On the counterside, attendance figures can't always be trusted. Arsenal always report 60,000 even when thousands of empty seats may be visible

[TWGL1]

It is clearly quite a crude measurement to only look at attendances, but another thing to consider is how close many clubs are atcapacity now, that didn't use to be the case.

Crowds in the 70s and 80s weren't really constrained by capacity bar for the odd big game, wheares now at least two thirds of premier league clubs more or less sell out every game. Even in the championship it's not uncommon to sell out.

On the counterside, attendance figures can't always be trusted. Arsenal always report 60,000 even when thousands of empty seats may be visible

Attendance figures include “tickets sold” these days

In the days before all ticket games , attendance figures were often underreported. The 1985 cup final attendance was apparently about 110-115,000.

[splott parker]

Attendance figures include “tickets sold” these days

In the days before all ticket games , attendance figures were often underreported. The 1985 cup final attendance was apparently about 110-115,000.

In the days of cash at the turnstiles the shouts of “f*cking liars” could often be heard down the City when the attendance was announced.

[Jordi Culé]

In the days of cash at the turnstiles the shouts of “f*cking liars” could often be heard down the City when the attendance was announced.

Clemo creaming the cash?

Remember the QPR cup game early 90s? Big crowd and the club leave the gate money in Ninian Park overnight, only to find out it had been broken into and taken.

Yeah right.

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Is it mooted that people paying obscene prices for attending the games these days mean it's a success ?

The working class support of the traditional big clubs in London, Manchester and Liverpool has been swept aside by football tourists prepared to pay high prices to attend games

I don't think that's a success at all

I don't think it's a success that the Premier League clubs pay a pittance towards football in the community projects and have to be dragged kicking and screaming to set them up .

I don't think it's a good idea that clubs like us , Sheffield Wednesday, Leeds etc have nearly driven themselves to the wall on wages trying to get into the Premier league , on the promise of all it's riches .

I am amazed that people I thought were switched on football fans are almost playing whatever tune SKY and the Premier League tells them .

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Clemo creaming the cash?

Remember the QPR cup game early 90s? Big crowd and the club leave the gate money in Ninian Park overnight, only to find out it had been broken into and taken.

Yeah right.

Two blokes from llanharry , near pontyclun

[rich munn]

And yet football in this country seems more popular than ever.

Glad you mentioned the lower divisions. I was going to include them in the analysis but it would have taken too long. However, I did look at the averages for the final season before the PL started compared to last season. For League One, it was an average of 5,422 in 1991/92 and 10,132 last season, and for League Two it was 3,243 in 1991/92 and 4,991 last season. The suggestion from many is that the pyramid is less competitive than ever, and yet a lot more people are going out to watch the competitions.

I was looking at some of City's attendances during the 'good old days' of the late-Seventies and early-Eighties. Dear me. The club's average for 1981/82 in the second tier was just 5,574. The smallest crowd that season was 3,239 - ironically for a 5-4 victory over Cambridge (I think it was played on a Saturday morning if memory serves). Can you imagine a crowd of three thousand for a Championship game at the CCS?

It was played on the same day as a Wales v Scotland rugby international in Cardiff. I was in The Gower after the football and was offered tickets for the rugby. That was another high-scoring game which Wales lost. A sporting day to remember.

[Cyclops]

There are some factors to be added in here:

The ban on standing which affected ground capacity.
Capacity of stadiums of teams who were in Div 1/Premiership. Having say Bournmouth in the Premiership would make a big difference.
It would be interesting to know the maximum ground capacities and the relationship to the actual crowd figures.
And I'd add in the average home gate in 1951/52 re: Div 1 which was 34,886 - the lowest average was Derby at just under 22,000. I started watching Div 1 football in 1953. In those days you had to barge/fight your way onto the terraces to get your spot - so unlike the orderliness of having an assigned seat. My team's average was more than 32.5K - and I remember crowds of 40K+
Impact of live football on TV

[Jordi Culé]

Is it mooted that people paying obscene prices for attending the games these days mean it's a success ?

The working class support of the traditional big clubs in London, Manchester and Liverpool has been swept aside by football tourists prepared to pay high prices to attend games

I don't think that's a success at all

I don't think it's a success that the Premier League clubs pay a pittance towards football in the community projects and have to be dragged kicking and screaming to set them up .

I don't think it's a good idea that clubs like us , Sheffield Wednesday, Leeds etc have nearly driven themselves to the wall on wages trying to get into the Premier league , on the promise of all it's riches .

I am amazed that people I thought were switched on football fans are almost playing whatever tune SKY and the Premier League tells them .

Football was a sport, it’s now a business. The irony is that most clubs don’t make any profit.

It’s hilarious really.

[LeningradCowboy]

Football was a sport, it’s now a business. The irony is that most clubs don’t make any profit.

It’s hilarious really.

Professional football has always been a business.

[Jordi Culé]

Two blokes from llanharry , near pontyclun

Mates of Tony?

There were a few suspect attendances during big games during that era.

That said, there were also some piiss poor ones.

[Jordi Culé]

Professional football has always been a business.

You’re right, although I feel the emphasis has moved away from the ‘sport’ which has been detrimental to some aspects.

It’s a piiss poorly run business.

[LeningradCowboy]

Yes, I've talked elsewhere about that before, and that's a shame. I'm a big German football fan and I am desperate for someone else to win it.

But either way, I don't think it's because they have terracing at grounds, or more saturday afternoon kick offs or tickets for €20 etc.

It probably is because of the 50+1 ownership rule though, which the things that you mentioned are often attributed to.

[Lither_1927]

Are there any words you actually understand the definition of?

Is it possible for attendances to go up at a time when the attendees preferred a bygone era? Yes or No...