Energy Prices

[WJ99mobile]

• Prime Minister Liz Truss has announced plans to cap average household energy bills at £2,500 a year from October
• The support will last for two years, she announces in the Commons, saying "this is the moment to be bold"
• A typical household's gas and electricity bill had been due to rise from £1,971 to £3,549 in October
• Businesses are also getting a support package for six months which will provide "equivalent support"
• After the six-month period, further support will be targeted at "vulnerable industries", Truss says
• The government is also lifting the ban on fracking - which involves extracting gas and oil from shale rock

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-politics-62828637

[dandywarhol]

In other words energy prices have gone up £500 a year.Use you more pay more,use less you pay less.

[Jimmy the Jock]

In other words energy prices have gone up £500 a year.Use you more pay more,use less you pay less.

If your bills are capped you can fill your boots once you get to £2500 . Heaters on whilst in work , tumble dryer going 24/7 ..

[chris lee]

If your bills are capped you can fill your boots once you get to £2500 . Heaters on whilst in work , tumble dryer going 24/7 ..

Our understanding of energy prices in this country is bizarre isn't it ?

The amount of people who genuinely believe they pay a fixed amount for their energy is very concerning, as if it is like a mobile phone contract.

Even this price cap makes it hard to know exactly where we stand, instead of telling me the household average of the Uk, can ofgem just say they have capped prices at how ever many pence per KWH.

[Ninja]

She'll be hated even more than Thatcher this one.

[Canton Kev]

A short term solution that kicks the bigger problem down the road to the next PM. A big win win for energy companies all paid for by us taxpayers. Don’t suppose anyone knows who Truss’ previous employers are….?

No doubt she will act as if she’s the hero who solved the crisis whilst ignoring bills are now over double what they were last year for many people and she’s saddled the country with a £180Bn bill.

[goats]

A short term solution that kicks the bigger problem down the road to the next PM. A big win win for energy companies all paid for by us taxpayers. Don’t suppose anyone knows who Truss’ previous employers are….?

No doubt she will act as if she’s the hero who solved the crisis whilst ignoring bills are now over double what they were last year for many people and she’s saddled the country with a £180Bn bill.

Can’t believe they are not wind falling taxing them, robbing peter to pay paul and Putin keeps on winning. Almost as bizarre as the fact Russia can keep raising the price, surely they should be barred from the international market whilst they are using it to fund an illegal occupation of another country? We might aswell get all our gas from Putins pocket rather than the 4% we actually do…..

[JamesWales]

Can’t believe they are not wind falling taxing them, robbing peter to pay paul and Putin keeps on winning. Almost as bizarre as the fact Russia can keep raising the price, surely they should be barred from the international market whilst they are using it to fund an illegal occupation of another country? We might aswell get all our gas from Putins pocket rather than the 4% we actually do…..

UK effectively have barred them from the international market, but you can't make everyone do it.

UK wholesale price down 6% today btw
https://tradingeconomics.com/commodity/uk-natural-gas

[Former Labour leader]

A short term solution that kicks the bigger problem down the road to the next PM. A big win win for energy companies all paid for by us taxpayers. Don’t suppose anyone knows who Truss’ previous employers are….?

No doubt she will act as if she’s the hero who solved the crisis whilst ignoring bills are now over double what they were last year for many people and she’s saddled the country with a £180Bn bill.

Agree we've been fecked over big time by Truss and the ERG. Note green levy scrapped. Full steam ahead for climate change then.

[Former Labour leader]

If your bills are capped you can fill your boots once you get to £2500 . Heaters on whilst in work , tumble dryer going 24/7 ..

You're definitely taking the piss today Jock. 😀

[JamesWales]

Great, something needed to be done, and it's been done.

[az city]

Great, something needed to be done, and it's been done.

I'm not 100% sure I'm fully up on what Truss has done. Here's what I gather has gone on.

As I understand it, Truss is borrowing GBP130B to fund the price cap. Of course, that borrowing will have to be paid back over the long-run through raising taxes. That will reduce aggregate demand and thus economic growth even further on Plague Island.

I also am led to believe that energy producers in the UK are expecting supra-normal profits of around GBP170B through the energy crisis. Of course, they won't just dole that huge sum out to their shareholders, they'll use it to invest and grow the UK economy a la trickledown (note to Jimbo - I'm being sarcastic).

Jimbo, I just don't see this as good news. GBP170B > GBP130B. And then there's the apparent abandonment of climate change objectives. This is appalling.

[JamesWales]

I'm not 100% sure I'm fully up on what Truss has done. Here's what I gather has gone on.

As I understand it, Truss is borrowing GBP130B to fund the price cap. Of course, that borrowing will have to be paid back over the long-run through raising taxes. That will reduce aggregate demand and thus economic growth even further on Plague Island.

I also am led to believe that energy producers in the UK are expecting supra-normal profits of around GBP170B through the energy crisis. Of course, they won't just dole that huge sum out to their shareholders, they'll use it to invest and grow the UK economy a la trickledown (note to Jimbo - I'm being sarcastic).

Jimbo, I just don't see this as good news. GBP170B > GBP130B. And then there's the apparent abandonment of climate change objectives. This is appalling.

You aren't very consistent Prof. This is what you said a few months ago about Britains borrowing debt. You seemed okay with it when it was something you supported (paying people to stay at home and lockdown the country etc) but less so when it's about subsidising peoples bills. In summary below, you said it's a "right wing trope" ( obvs! ) to complain about debt and repayments.

You even said it "never has to be repayed"

So do we take you seriously then, or now?

"First, UK austerity is now widely acknowledged to have been a huge own goal and a bust (cf Joe Stiglitz).

This "amazement" at borrowing and debt levels is one of the standard rightwing tropes that emerges from time to time before they slam the poor with austerity claiming it's about controlling public finances. For context, the UK's current GDP is around 3T. In your language that's GBP 3,000,000M. Does 17,400M GBP now seem that big? I think not.

A few other things that seem missing in your picture. The UK economy is not (as Thathcer said) like a household. The National Debt never has to be repaid. That is a crass oft-peddled misunderstanding of the macroeconomy. Debt has to be serviced sustainably to maintain confidence in the currency but the debt can revolve forever. Effectively it means the UK has to cover its interest payments so the ROW is confident it will continue to do so and carry on buying its debt instruments."

https://www.ccmb.co.uk/showthread.ph...90#post5256990

[az city]

You aren't very consistent Prof. This is what you said a few months ago about Britains borrowing debt. You seemed okay with it when it was something you supported (paying people to stay at home and lockdown the country etc) but less so when it's about subsidising peoples bills. In summary below, you said it's a "right wing trope" ( obvs! ) to complain about debt and repayments.

You even said it "never has to be repayed"

So do we take you seriously then, or now?

"First, UK austerity is now widely acknowledged to have been a huge own goal and a bust (cf Joe Stiglitz).

This "amazement" at borrowing and debt levels is one of the standard rightwing tropes that emerges from time to time before they slam the poor with austerity claiming it's about controlling public finances. For context, the UK's current GDP is around 3T. In your language that's GBP 3,000,000M. Does 17,400M GBP now seem that big? I think not.

A few other things that seem missing in your picture. The UK economy is not (as Thathcer said) like a household. The National Debt never has to be repaid. That is a crass oft-peddled misunderstanding of the macroeconomy. Debt has to be serviced sustainably to maintain confidence in the currency but the debt can revolve forever. Effectively it means the UK has to cover its interest payments so the ROW is confident it will continue to do so and carry on buying its debt instruments."

https://www.ccmb.co.uk/showthread.ph...90#post5256990

What third-rate college did you go to that didn't explain the difference servicing a debt and paying it off?

What exactly is "Britains (sic) borrowing debt"? Is there a non-borrowing debt? Never heard of it.

To summarize for you, Tory Boy, you clearly believe (based on your stance) it's better for taxpayers to cover the cost of Truss' energy cap than for it to come from the excess profits of the energy providers.

You haven't engaged with my points about the energy cap and borrowing.

[Claude Blue]

What third-rate college did you go to that didn't explain the difference servicing a debt and paying it off?

What exactly is "Britains (sic) borrowing debt"? Is there a non-borrowing debt? Never heard of it.

To summarize for you, Tory Boy, you clearly believe (based on your stance) it's better for taxpayers to cover the cost of Truss' energy cap than for it to come from the excess profits of the energy providers.

You haven't engaged with my points about the energy cap and borrowing.

You are correct, debt doesn't have to be paid off just serviced correctly.

The concern currently is that the markets are getting quite jittery about UK PLC's ability to service current debt and therefore future borrowing by the government will become more expensive.

I see no reason why excess profits shouldn't be taxed heavily. These profits are way above the norm and in no way due to companies investment or innovation. If it can be done then do it. I doubt it will be as much as the LP say but something is better than nothing.

If the LP were in government and enacting Truss's policy the Tory boys on here would be screaming blue murder about unfunded policy, maxing out credit cards or other such nonsense.

Like most of our right wing print media they're hypocrites.

[JamesWales]

What third-rate college did you go to that didn't explain the difference servicing a debt and paying it off?

What exactly is "Britains (sic) borrowing debt"? Is there a non-borrowing debt? Never heard of it.

To summarize for you, Tory Boy, you clearly believe (based on your stance) it's better for taxpayers to cover the cost of Truss' energy cap than for it to come from the excess profits of the energy providers.

You haven't engaged with my points about the energy cap and borrowing.

You are such a total hypocrite. Got caught out by your own words there AZ.

There is no ideology with you, just political point scoring. Quite clearly when it suits you (to lock us down) borrowing huge sums is fine) when it doesnt (to help with bills) it's not.

TBF, you live a long way away and no doubt have no trouble with your bills and you presumably aren't aware of whats been happening and the bills people and business were facing that now aren't. And nor do you seem to care that much of it. My mother was terrified of the winter. Now she isn't. A mate thought he would close his business this winter, now he won't.

Let me help: People need help with bills NOW. Taxing an entirely unknown sum that could be avoided or may never exist in a years time does not cut it. Those companies will also be paying billions more in tax through profits, but again, that is not with us yet and people need help now.

The solution may be imperfect and temporary but it solves a problem, whereas you offer ideological whingeing that solves nothing and is totally the opposite of what you said a few months ago.

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Great, something needed to be done, and it's been done.

We have been done , clearly

Your continual support of the Tories is fecking embarrassing, wind your next in

[JamesWales]

We have been done , clearly

Your continual support of the Tories is fecking embarrassing, wind your next in

Sludge, on the contrary. This provides stability, which is urgently needed.

You just liked being able to moan. If Labour had done this, your reaction would have been totally different, whereas mine would have been the same.

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

A short term solution that kicks the bigger problem down the road to the next PM. A big win win for energy companies all paid for by us taxpayers. Don’t suppose anyone knows who Truss’ previous employers are….?

No doubt she will act as if she’s the hero who solved the crisis whilst ignoring bills are now over double what they were last year for many people and she’s saddled the country with a £180Bn bill.

Absobloodyloutely

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Sludge, on the contrary. This provides stability, which is urgently needed.

You just liked being able to moan. If Labour had done this, your reaction would have been totally different, whereas mine would have been the same.

Bullshit

[JamesWales]

Bullshit

Theres's no way to prove it, but I'm certain thats the case. This is what people have been calling for - it gives certainty, reduces bills and finds a temporary solution whilst a long term one is worked up. Absolutely, if Labour did this you would support it.

It's just so tiresome, and clearly peoples concerns were never actually about people facing devastating bills this winter at all - it's about about discord and criticising the government for the sake of it.

[2b2bdoo]

Seems good news to me.

[JamesWales]

Seems good news to me.

Because it is, but some are so partisan and dogmatic they refuse themselves to acknowledge it.

[the other bob wilson]

Seems good news to me.

Well, it is to the extent that it could have been a lot worse. However, we’re looking at a monthly increase of over £40 compared to what we’ve paying now and, although I’ve not seen confirmation of this because everything has suddenly switched to being about the Queen, I assume it’s still in the form of a loan that we’re going to have to pay back. This seems grossly unfair when certain people and companies are making obscene amounts of money out of this situation - the lack of a windfall tax appears to be based on nothing more than dogma.

[JamesWales]

Well, it is to the extent that it could have been a lot worse. However, we’re looking at a monthly increase of over £40 compared to what we’ve paying now and, although I’ve not seen confirmation of this because everything has suddenly switched to being about the Queen, I assume it’s still in the form of a loan that we’re going to have to pay back. This seems grossly unfair when certain people and companies are making obscene amounts of money out of this situation - the lack of a windfall tax appears to be based on nothing more than dogma.

Companies will be paying tax on those profits. Much greater income than last year. The problem is partly that you pay taxes after profits, so you have to wait for accounts, whereas action was needed in time for winter.