We really should have a General Election.

[goats]

While on holiday with your family, you're bringing up a post I made over two years ago - and you think that reflects badly on me???

Go and do something more fun than this. Holidays aren't cheap.

First time I’ve checked in on the lunatic asylum since I got here Friday thanks though you don’t disappoint.
Been up since 6, watched the sun up, went for a run along a white sand beach for 30 mins, few beers sitting in a bar on the beach, kids playing in the sea, 85 degrees….sometimes Lardy it’s nice to just chill on the balcony with a cup of coffee and read your nonsense….

[lardy]

First time I’ve checked in on the lunatic asylum since I got here Friday thanks though you don’t disappoint.
Been up since 6, watched the sun up, went for a run along a white sand beach for 30 mins, few beers sitting in a bar on the beach, kids playing in the sea, 85 degrees….sometimes Lardy it’s nice to just chill on the balcony with a cup of coffee and read your nonsense….

Congrats for having a holiday, I guess, you seem quite proud of it. Rest assured, I won't be finding the time to chat with you when I go on my hols

[jon1959]

If you think the Tory party did not choose Liz Truss to be their leader, then perhaps you can tell me who did?

If you think the party with the majority in Parliament does not choose who is PM, then perhaps you can tell me who does?

What are you blathering on about?

You got all high and mighty, giving Paul a lecture about parliamentary politics and claimed that Parliament chooses the Prime Minister.

Parliament didn't choose the Prime Minister. Not even the MPs from the ruling party chose the Prime Minister - most of them wanted a different Prime Minister.

The Prime Minister was chosen by 80,000 members of the Tory Party.

If you had said first time around that "the party with the majority in Parliament" chooses the PM, I would agree with you. But you didn't, and as usual when you make a prat of yourself you rephrase and move the goalposts - whilst still patronising other posters who disagree with you. Not a good look.

[the other bob wilson]

It wasn't a lecture, it was a statement of fact.

The electorate voted for the Tories in 2019, and it is up to the Tory party and its members to decide their leader. You can blether on all you like, but that is how our system works. If you think that it works another way, then you're mistaken.

Not that I agree with it, because I don't. I'd like a GE tomorrow, based on PR, but we're not going to get it.

How on earth can you say Parliament chooses leaders when you look at this?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022_C...n_(UK)#Results

Tory MPs had five different votes in the election process and the person who is now PM didn’t win one of them! She also didn’t win a majority of the eligible vote in the members poll.

[A Quiet Monkfish]

How on earth can you say Parliament chooses leaders when you look at this?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022_C...n_(UK)#Results

Tory MPs had five different votes in the election process and the person who is now PM didn’t win one of them! She also didn’t win a majority of the eligible vote in the members poll.

She had a few more votes than Gordon Brown got.

[superfeathers]

How on earth can you say Parliament chooses leaders when you look at this?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022_C...n_(UK)#Results

Tory MPs had five different votes in the election process and the person who is now PM didn’t win one of them! She also didn’t win a majority of the eligible vote in the members poll.

The "actual" current PM got 5% of the first round vote and ducked out.
Shocking!

[HiVis]

What are you blathering on about?

You got all high and mighty, giving Paul a lecture about parliamentary politics and claimed that Parliament chooses the Prime Minister.

Parliament didn't choose the Prime Minister. Not even the MPs from the ruling party chose the Prime Minister - most of them wanted a different Prime Minister.

The Prime Minister was chosen by 80,000 members of the Tory Party.

If you had said first time around that "the party with the majority in Parliament" chooses the PM, I would agree with you. But you didn't, and as usual when you make a prat of yourself you rephrase and move the goalposts - whilst still patronising other posters who disagree with you. Not a good look.

You're struggling with this.

Ever since Walpole, the party with the majority in the Commons chooses the Prime Minister.

In this case it was the Tory party that chose who would lead them in Parliament.

If you think ots not the person who commands the majority of the House that is chosen as Prime Minister, I'd be interested to see your evidence that suggests otherwise

[HiVis]

How on earth can you say Parliament chooses leaders when you look at this?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022_C...n_(UK)#Results

Tory MPs had five different votes in the election process and the person who is now PM didn’t win one of them! She also didn’t win a majority of the eligible vote in the members poll.

Of course Parliament chooses the Prime Minister. Its been that way since Walpole.

The PM is the individual that commands a majority of sitting MPs. By default that is usually the leader of the party with the majority.

[the other bob wilson]

She had a few more votes than Gordon Brown got.

Not in Parliament she didn’t - John McDonnell and Michael Meacher were candidates for the leadership in 2007, Meacher dropped out and McDonnell failed to attract sufficient endorsements to go forward. He needed to get 12.5 per cent of MPs votes, but only got twenty odd while Brown got 300 plus.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeli..._election_(UK)

[jon1959]

You're struggling with this.

Ever since Walpole, the party with the majority in the Commons chooses the Prime Minister.

In this case it was the Tory party that chose who would lead them in Parliament.

If you think ots not the person who commands the majority of the House that is chosen as Prime Minister, I'd be interested to see your evidence that suggests otherwise

Stop digging.

[the other bob wilson]

Of course Parliament chooses the Prime Minister. Its been that way since Walpole.

The PM is the individual that commands a majority of sitting MPs. By default that is usually the leader of the party with the majority.

This Prime Miinister is only in the job because of the votes of Conservative party members

[HiVis]

Stop digging.

You're confusing the office of Prime Ninister with the leader of a party. The two are not the same.

We've had situations in the past where the leader of the party isn't PM. I think we are about to see this again: Truss remains leader of the party but Hunt has the support of the majority of MPs

[HiVis]

This Prime Miinister is only in the job because of the votes of Conservative party members

Almost correct. Truss as leader of the Tories is PM. Truss can remain leader of the Tories but if she doesn't have the support of the majority of MPs she will no longer be PM.

Do you really think the leader of the party with the parliamentary majority is automatically the Prime Minister?

[A Quiet Monkfish]

Not in Parliament she didn’t - John McDonnell and Michael Meacher were candidates for the leadership in 2007, Meacher dropped out and McDonnell failed to attract sufficient endorsements to go forward. He needed to get 12.5 per cent of MPs votes, but only got twenty odd while Brown got 300 plus.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeli..._election_(UK)

I sit corrected.

[jon1959]

You're confusing the office of Prime Ninister with the leader of a party. The two are not the same.

We've had situations in the past where the leader of the party isn't PM. I think we are about to see this again: Truss remains leader of the party but Hunt has the support of the majority of MPs

Almost correct. Truss as leader of the Tories is PM. Truss can remain leader of the Tories but if she doesn't have the support of the majority of MPs she will no longer be PM.

Do you really think the leader of the party with the parliamentary majority is automatically the Prime Minister?

If you really want to tie yourself in this knot, why not just say the monarch of the day appoints the Prime Minister - not the voters, not the party members not the MPs of the majority party and certainly not Parliament.

Whatever might have happened in the past or could happen in the future, in this case Liz Truss is Prime Minister because she got more Tory members (not a majority) to vote for her than Sunak. She was not the choice of most Tory MPs and certainly not the choice of Parliament as a whole. And that process is starting to become a feature of modern UK politics.

In my opinion it does raise questions of legitimacy and mandate, and it does justify calls for a General Election.

That was the view of a Tory MP I listened to on 5 Live yesterday too. They are terrified of losing their seats, but some are even more worried about a backlash against them from the public if they appear to be imposing social and financial chaos (and picking heads of government) without reference to the electorate.

[HyperboreanCCFC]

While on holiday with your family, you're bringing up a post I made over two years ago - and you think that reflects badly on me???

Go and do something more fun than this. Holidays aren't cheap.

What's wrong with browsing your club's message board for half hour while on holiday? Or are holidays with you all organised FUN FUN FUN...

[HiVis]

If you really want to tie yourself in this knot, why not just say the monarch of the day appoints the Prime Minister - not the voters, not the party members not the MPs of the majority party and certainly not Parliament.

Whatever might have happened in the past or could happen in the future, in this case Liz Truss is Prime Minister because she got more Tory members (not a majority) to vote for her than Sunak. She was not the choice of most Tory MPs and certainly not the choice of Parliament as a whole. And that process is starting to become a feature of modern UK politics.

In my opinion it does raise questions of legitimacy and mandate, and it does justify calls for a General Election.

That was the view of a Tory MP I listened to on 5 Live yesterday too. They are terrified of losing their seats, but some are even more worried about a backlash against them from the public if they appear to be imposing social and financial chaos (and picking heads of government) without reference to the electorate.

There's no knot Jon, you're clearly not familiar with the constitutional concept of "command of confidence". The individual who can control the majority in the commons is the prime minister. Typically this is the leader of the party that has the majority (or the largest in a coalition), but it is not always the case.

We are seeing Liz Truss have her authority eroded, and given the majority of conservative MPs are now supporting Hunt, he is de facto Prime Minister and will soon be calling the legislative agenda.

Your reference to the monarch is a red herring, as the appointment to become Prime Minister by the Monarch is purely ceremonial.

You'll no doubt recall that Corbyn had the majority of party members behind him, but if he did not have the support of the PLP then he could not govern (assuming Labour held the majority).

[the other bob wilson]

Almost correct. Truss as leader of the Tories is PM. Truss can remain leader of the Tories but if she doesn't have the support of the majority of MPs she will no longer be PM.
https://www.ccmb.co.uk/showthread.ph...Election/page4
Do you really think the leader of the party with the parliamentary majority is automatically the Prime Minister?

Truss was beaten in every poll of MPs during the leadership election - I would have thought that tells you that she has never had the backing of a majority of MPs. Therefore, she had to have a majority in the poll of members to win - it was impossible for her to do so otherwise

[HiVis]

Truss was beaten in every poll of MPs during the leadership election - I would have thought that tells you that she has never had the backing of a majority of MPs. Therefore, she had to have a majority in the poll of members to win - it was impossible for her to do so otherwise

Agreed. I'm not sure of what point you are making here, if one at all.

Just to be clear, no one is disputing that to become leader of the Tory party, you need a majority of party members to vote for you. What is in dispute is that the leader of the party automatically becomes Prime minister. This is most certainly not the case. You're not alone in thinking this, but its a quirk of our unwritten constitution on how the PM is chosen.