How are Welsh taxpayers paying for an England rail project?

[JamesWales]

As General Melchett said: "If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through."

Now now, behave!

[Canton Kev]

The argument here (which is true) is that people from North Wales will benefit as anyone going from Wrexham, Bangor et al will get to London quicker as a result. Like I said, that is demonstrably true, but I still think Wales should get it's share of HS2 funding, not least because it's politically sensible to do so.

That's entirely dependent on if the leg beyond Birmingham gets built. The East Midlands/Leeds line of HS2 has already been scrapped and the Birmingham/East Midlands line is also seemingly being considered to be axed.

It's already been said that Manchester's HS2 station won't be buried underground due to the paltry (in the context of the entire project) cost of £5Bn being too high. Plenty of stink has been, and will continue to be, kicked up over that decision.

With the costs constantly rising and work on the Manchester branch not expected to begin for another decade, it wouldn't surprise me if HS2 stops at Birmingham and the rest of the project is binned off for something cheaper and half arsed.

[HiVis]

of course it matters how much is for infrastructure, why can people not see this?

of course people can see it, why be so condescending? We just appreciate that there is so much money available, and if we spend this more on health and welfare we have less to spend on infrastructure.

Wales spends a higher proportion on pensions, health issues social security etc BECAUSE we have less money spent on infrastructure offer the decades, it is not a good reason to justify not spending as much on infrastructure as England.

infrastructure is a devolved matter. Westminster even offered to pay for the M4 relief road by Drakeford said no. After 20 years + of devolution, we have to start looking at the Welsh government rather than Westminster.

imagine there are 2 towns, one is wealthy with a good rail link , the other is poor with mostly unemployed people and no rail.
if you have a pot of money for infrastructure, do you spend it on the poorer town? or do you further upgrade the rich town because you already spend more in benefits on the poorer town? that is the choice that the UK is continually making and it's bullshit.

Wales makes up 5% of the UK, ergo we should receive 5% of the total budget - which we do. I guarantee than we get a better deal than say Cumbria or Cornwall, even though they are English areas. The only areas of the UK that are fiscal positive are London, the South East and the East, everywhere else is looking for levelling up funding. Wales is not a special case. HS2 does not impact or have any benefit to the SW, but they still have to pay for it.

the second Severn bridge was paid for by private finance - which cost about £200million - then the agreement made by the Tories was that they would be able to charge for using the bridge until they had made £1bn of profit in 1991 values, after any expenses to maintain the bridge, as this was paid for by motorists it basically came directly from the Welsh economy not paid for by central government at all.

my original point was the Severn Bridge (the suspension bridge built in the 1960s), why have you now started discussing the Second Severn Crossing (to give it its proper name). As this is confusing for you, let me make it clear. In the 1960s when the Severn Bridge was built, the budget for this came from Westminster yet was to the economic benefit of Wales. No one in Wales complained back then that we were the recipient of 100% of the funding for the bridge, so why bellyache now?

As Wales is part of the UK, there will be times when UK level expenditure does not have a direct impact on Wales, and there will be times when the impact is disproportional to Wales (or Scotland or NI). An example will be the recent AUKUS announcement regarding building new submarines. These will be built in Scotland and will benefit Scotland far more than 10% (which is the population).

[Rjk]

of course people can see it, why be so condescending? We just appreciate that there is so much money available, and if we spend this more on health and welfare we have less to spend on infrastructure.



infrastructure is a devolved matter. Westminster even offered to pay for the M4 relief road by Drakeford said no. After 20 years + of devolution, we have to start looking at the Welsh government rather than Westminster.


Wales makes up 5% of the UK, ergo we should receive 5% of the total budget - which we do. I guarantee than we get a better deal than say Cumbria or Cornwall, even though they are English areas. The only areas of the UK that are fiscal positive are London, the South East and the East, everywhere else is looking for levelling up funding. Wales is not a special case. HS2 does not impact or have any benefit to the SW, but they still have to pay for it.


my original point was the Severn Bridge (the suspension bridge built in the 1960s), why have you now started discussing the Second Severn Crossing (to give it its proper name). As this is confusing for you, let me make it clear. In the 1960s when the Severn Bridge was built, the budget for this came from Westminster yet was to the economic benefit of Wales. No one in Wales complained back then that we were the recipient of 100% of the funding for the bridge, so why bellyache now?

As Wales is part of the UK, there will be times when UK level expenditure does not have a direct impact on Wales, and there will be times when the impact is disproportional to Wales (or Scotland or NI). An example will be the recent AUKUS announcement regarding building new submarines. These will be built in Scotland and will benefit Scotland far more than 10% (which is the population).

so your 2 examples of infrastructure benefitting Wales were a barrage that never got past the planning phase and a bridge that was built in the 1960s, for about £8 million. and again the construction costs were recouped by a toll.

[JamesWales]

That's entirely dependent on if the leg beyond Birmingham gets built. The East Midlands/Leeds line of HS2 has already been scrapped and the Birmingham/East Midlands line is also seemingly being considered to be axed.

It's already been said that Manchester's HS2 station won't be buried underground due to the paltry (in the context of the entire project) cost of £5Bn being too high. Plenty of stink has been, and will continue to be, kicked up over that decision.

With the costs constantly rising and work on the Manchester branch not expected to begin for another decade, it wouldn't surprise me if HS2 stops at Birmingham and the rest of the project is binned off for something cheaper and half arsed.

I agree with you, although even in that scenario it would still be quicker getting to London.

I would have scrapped the whole thing long ago but we are probably too far down the line (no pun intended) now.

Investment in railway is very important but I'm not sure it needs to be HS2. London to Edinburgh for example is just over four hours (and not on high speed lines). Those two major cities are very far apart but within the same country. Is it really necessary to be able to get between the two much faster than that? I'm not convinced.

Better to spend this money on speeding up links between cities in a more affordable manner, and invest in local networks

[Rjk]

I agree with you, although even in that scenario it would still be quicker getting to London.

I would have scrapped the whole thing long ago but we are probably too far down the line (no pun intended) now.

Investment in railway is very important but I'm not sure it needs to be HS2. London to Edinburgh for example is just over four hours (and not on high speed lines). Those two major cities are very far apart but within the same country. Is it really necessary to be able to get between the two much faster than that? I'm not convinced.

Better to spend this money on speeding up links between cities in a more affordable manner, and invest in local networks

yes HS2 is a strange project, the whole business case for it is for increased capacity on the line, which you can achieve in a number of other cheaper ways.
that said, we should, as a nation, be able to make a few hundred km of high speed rail network - China over the same period have implemented thousands of km, probably for a fraction of the cost.

[Canton Kev]

I agree with you, although even in that scenario it would still be quicker getting to London.

I would have scrapped the whole thing long ago but we are probably too far down the line (no pun intended) now.

Investment in railway is very important but I'm not sure it needs to be HS2. London to Edinburgh for example is just over four hours (and not on high speed lines). Those two major cities are very far apart but within the same country. Is it really necessary to be able to get between the two much faster than that? I'm not convinced.

Better to spend this money on speeding up links between cities in a more affordable manner, and invest in local networks

I actually don’t think the journey from Wrexham to London is any quicker if HS2 only goes to Birmingham. The current quickest route is to go Wrexham to Chester to London. Taking ~2hrs 30.

Wrexham to Birmingham and then Birmingham to London on HS2 would mean going to Chester, changing at Stafford, getting off at New Street and then transferring to the new HS2 station at Curzon Street.

You get off the train that would’ve taken you to London anyway to then transfer twice, including switching stations. The Birmingham to London journey is only quickened by 15 minutes on HS2. Wrexham to Birmingham alone is about the same as Wrexham to London.

[PontBlue]

I agree, Wales should get it's share of funding, but it has to be said that more public money is spent per head in Wales than in England, so the 'tax payer' argument doesn't wash.

The argument here (which is true) is that people from North Wales will benefit as anyone going from Wrexham, Bangor et al will get to London quicker as a result. Like I said, that is demonstrably true, but I still think Wales should get it's share of HS2 funding, not least because it's politically sensible to do so.

It's also true that West Coast main line travellers from Scotland benefit in quicker journey times to London and Scotland had a share of the cash. This is where the Westminster Government argument falls apart.

[Divine Wright]

on the other hand membership of the EU was worth a lot more than the membership fee to the UK economy.

Also at least the money we got back was occasionally spent on infrastructure projects in Wales, unlike Westminster who will always spend it in the South East

Always the same, Cardiff and the Valleys get everything.

[Divine Wright]

I wondered how much we are owed from the plundering of our natural resources for the past couple of centuries ? #reparation

[dembethewarrior]

I wondered how much we are owed from the plundering of our natural resources for the past couple of centuries ? #reparation

If they borrowed it we could ask for something back.

If they've just stolen it, we'll get nothing mate.

[HiVis]

so your 2 examples of infrastructure benefitting Wales were a barrage that never got past the planning phase and a bridge that was built in the 1960s, for about £8 million. and again the construction costs were recouped by a toll.

It's hard to take what you say seriously when you struggle with facts.

Cardiff Bay Barrage is very real, it's been built, I walk across it with my dog two or three times a week. Why you're claiming it doesn't exist is beyond me.

Central government also funded the Severn Bridge.

These are two significant investments that benefit Wales disproportionately that had Barnett consequences. Whatever your opinions are (and from what you have written they are delusional), facts remain facts.

[HiVis]

I wondered how much we are owed from the plundering of our natural resources for the past couple of centuries ? #reparation

You need to take this up with the Butes and the Crawshays, not central government.

[A Quiet Monkfish]

I wondered how much we are owed from the plundering of our natural resources for the past couple of centuries ? #reparation

What natural resources ?

[Dorcus]

What natural resources ?

Leeks and daffodils.

[Rjk]

It's hard to take what you say seriously when you struggle with facts.

Cardiff Bay Barrage is very real, it's been built, I walk across it with my dog two or three times a week. Why you're claiming it doesn't exist is beyond me.

Central government also funded the Severn Bridge.

These are two significant investments that benefit Wales disproportionately that had Barnett consequences. Whatever your opinions are (and from what you have written they are delusional), facts remain facts.

ok so apologies I had assumed you meant the second Severn crossing and the Severn barrage as major infrastructure projects, but instead you were talking about the original Severn bridge and Cardiff bay barrage as examples of infrastructure spending by Westminster that benefits Wales.
that's 2 fairly small projects over the course of the last 60 years, the bridge funding was also repaid many times over by the bridge tolls, so that was effectively paid for by mostly the Welsh as well.
at any given time there are several multi billion pound infrastructure projects taking place in London at the same time. a little over 100m over the last 60 years is a piss in the ocean.

[PontBlue]

Yet another project that "benefits" Wales so we don't get equivalent funding

Wales misses out on £1bn as UK Government defines a second major English rail project as 'England and Wales' - Wales Online

[Rjk]

Yet another project that "benefits" Wales so we don't get equivalent funding

Wales misses out on £1bn as UK Government defines a second major English rail project as 'England and Wales' - Wales Online

****ing bullshit

[Divine Wright]

What natural resources ?

Coal

Steel

Water


...obviously.

[Divine Wright]

You need to take this up with the Butes and the Crawshays, not central government.

They are all in it. Bute was a toff from London. Born into money. None of that money was reinvested, evidently.

Crawshay ..... dunno much about him but he bought Merthyr steel works from a guy who became a member of parliament.... jobs for the boys. Again, all of that wealth is definitely not in South Wales. As with most colonialist plundering types, they use foreign lands to make their fortunes, suck it dry and split.

[Divine Wright]

,

[Divine Wright]

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[Canton Kev]

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Good point

[Dorcus]

Good point

It's what was left unsaid that's important.

[HiVis]

They are all in it. Bute was a toff from London. Born into money. None of that money was reinvested, evidently.

Crawshay ..... dunno much about him but he bought Merthyr steel works from a guy who became a member of parliament.... jobs for the boys. Again, all of that wealth is definitely not in South Wales. As with most colonialist plundering types, they use foreign lands to make their fortunes, suck it dry and split.

the Valleys and docks housing built by the (Scottish) Bute's were some of the best workers houses in the UK