40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel

[jon1959]

I have already commented on the complexities and atrocities of the war and the part that both sides have played in it; the people of Palestine have been the victims in a mission carefully planned and exectuted by Hamas, who knew how Israel would respond and what that would mean for the everyday people of Palestine.
While the terrible suffering of families on both sides of the boarder is unacceptable and ultimately unnecessary, we are now discussing the response and the financial means to respond appropriately; particularly from those in the same worldwide spiritual camp.

You have already commented many, many times on your belief that Israel has some 'divine' right to occupy the whole of Palestine and many adjoining countries. You talk about a real estate deal with God signed off in the Bible. You endorse ethnic cleansing and have already commented that you think Israel has exercised remarkable restraint in the way it has cleansed non Jews from their (Arab) historic lands. You think an immigrant from New York City has more right to a Palestinian home on the West Bank than the Palestinians whose families have lived there for millennia.

You have done a bit of faux liberal hand wringing at tens of thousands of dead civilians, but have made clear that you are really a full on cheerleader for genocide and other war crimes by 'the Chosen People', and anyway it was Hamas who bombed the babies (by making Israel do it). Although you do regret the downside that Israel has disgusted most of the world with its actions - but on the upside, this will bring on the End Of Days when something significant in your fantasy world happens.

You are right of course that the conflict did not start on 7 October, and that the regimes around Israel/Palestine have done little to help the people of the occupied West Bank, the blockaded and now devastated Gaza Strip or the second class Arab citizens of Israel. Although as you know 'the same worldwide spiritual camp' tag does not apply to many of the people starved and murdered by the Israeli state. Some have no faith; others belong to a group called Christians!

[stevo]

Indeed, well said.

The fact that Truthpaste is happy to pin all the devastation in Gaza on Hamas alone just leaves me speechless. And he calls himself a Christian.

[stevo]

yet if Israel had the land originally deeded to them

Can you tell us a little bit more about that?

[truthpaste]

Can you tell us a little bit more about that?

This explains it well with references at the bottom if you'd like to study it in more depth.

ISRAEL - THE PROMISE FROM GOD

[jeepster]

This explains it well with references at the bottom if you'd like to study it in more depth.

ISRAEL - THE PROMISE FROM GOD

How can you be promised any thing by someone who is not real?
Is it like easter eggs from the bunny,gifts from santa.

[Dave Blue]

Indeed, well said.

The fact that Truthpaste is happy to pin all the devastation in Gaza on Hamas alone just leaves me speechless. And he calls himself a Christian.

As a Christian, he doesn’t seem like a Christian to be honest. Not a good spokesperson for my beliefs.

[truthpaste]

As a Christian, he doesn’t seem like a Christian to be honest. Not a good spokesperson for my beliefs.

The term 'Christian' is one of the most abused terms in the english language; so I'm not sure what you are objecting to, but so we can cut through any denominational fog, and maybe we also have a very different poistion on eschatology, yet what do you think I have said which is unbiblical?

[truthpaste]

To reply to Jon's comments which go from the accurate to sweeping false statements then let me deal with them separately:-

You have already commented many, many times on your belief that Israel has some 'divine' right to occupy the whole of Palestine and many adjoining countries. You talk about a real estate deal with God signed off in the Bible.
Correct, and you won't share that view because you don't have any respect for God's Word.

You endorse ethnic cleansing and have already commented that you think Israel has exercised remarkable restraint in the way it has cleansed non Jews from their (Arab) historic lands.
A lie, as I have said that neither side is faultless and in fact Israel has a history all the way back to Abraham of both great and dreadful periods of history which is also true of the majority of nations.

Although you do regret the downside that Israel has disgusted most of the world with its actions - but on the upside, this will bring on the End Of Days when something significant in your fantasy world happens.
And then you contradict yourself by recalling that I did condemn Israel! But you were annoyed that this could potentially challenge your world view if it then links into the timetable that promised that Israel a return to the Land and the dozens of other 2,500 year old precise prophecies that have already come true.

You are right of course that the conflict did not start on 7 October, and that the regimes around Israel/Palestine have done little to help the people of the occupied West Bank, the blockaded and now devastated Gaza Strip or the second class Arab citizens of Israel. Although as you know 'the same worldwide spiritual camp' tag does not apply to many of the people starved and murdered by the Israeli state. Some have no faith; others belong to a group called Christians!
As with all contries there is a mix, however they are mainly Islamic and ruled by an Islamic power that they (or their parents) elected.

[jon1959]

You endorse ethnic cleansing and have already commented that you think Israel has exercised remarkable restraint in the way it has cleansed non Jews from their (Arab) historic lands.

A lie, as I have said that neither side is faultless and in fact Israel has a history all the way back to Abraham of both great and dreadful periods of history which is also true of the majority of nations.

Not a lie at all. You made exactly the claim I said in a post last year. (Your response avoids the point).

It left me wondering about your Taliban-style Christianity and your fundamentalist (another thread, I know) Christian Zionism that puts you in lockstep with Israeli fascists and the racist far right of MAGA Republicans.

It was the chicken and egg question. Is your belief system a product of your politics, or do your political positions come from your belief system?

Either way it is indefensible.

It doesn't matter if all you do with what is in your head is shout at traffic lights. But you claim to be very active across a lot of social media peddling these views. Whilst some may be grateful for being battered over the head with biblical quotes, it is the real life consequences of what you preach that counts. At this time the consequences are mass murder (over 70% of the 40,000+ deaths are women and children), displacement, pain, starvation and terror.

[Citizen's Nephew]

Not a lie at all. You made exactly the claim I said in a post last year. (Your response avoids the point).

It left me wondering about your Taliban-style Christianity and your fundamentalist (another thread, I know) Christian Zionism that puts you in lockstep with Israeli fascists and the racist far right of MAGA Republicans.

It was the chicken and egg question. Is your belief system a product of your politics, or do your political positions come from your belief system?

Either way it is indefensible.

It doesn't matter if all you do with what is in your head is shout at traffic lights. But you claim to be very active across a lot of social media peddling these views. Whilst some may be grateful for being battered over the head with biblical quotes, it is the real life consequences of what you preach that counts. At this time the consequences are mass murder (over 70% of the 40,000+ deaths are women and children), displacement, pain, starvation and terror.

Jon, another excellent post with considered argument and demonstrating remarkable patience. I'm beginning to ask a few questions here though. I'd be interested in yours and others take on this. I'm not sure I possess the f*cking resolve patience or will to continue.

In the complex tapestry of global religious and political discussion, the challenge of engaging with individuals holding extreme, fundamentalist views, particularly those who justify violence through religious prophecies, is a futile one. Surely?

For me, this question becomes especially pertinent when discussing extremists who cite prophecies as justifications for genocide, ethnic cleansing, starvation, and other atrocities in the 21st century. It is essential to acknowledge that these positions starkly contrast with the fundamental teachings of Jesus, who preached love, compassion, and peace. Jesus, a Jew, taught principles that are diametrically opposed to any form of violence or hatred. Additionally, the ideology of Zionism, with its political and territorial ambitions, often rejects the New Testament, creating a further disconnect from the Christian messages of love and reconciliation.

But in the same way, there are, in some people's eyes, real and true Cardiff City supporters. It seems that in truthpaste's world, this applies to Christians too.

The dialogue with individuals holding such extremist beliefs presents a considerable challenge (under-f*cking-statement). On one hand, it is tempting to argue that reason and evidence-based dialogue can bridge divides and soften hardline stances. On the other hand, when beliefs are deeply entrenched and supported by a conviction in divine sanction, the scope for productive dialogue narrows significantly.

Referencing religious prophecy to justify severe human rights violations raises the question: are we witnessing not just a refusal to engage in meaningful discussion but potentially a form of trolling or even geopolitical destabilisation?

The use of such conflicts by extremists to further their narratives, irrespective of the human cost, points to a deep-seated fanaticism.

When engaging in discussions, surely it is crucial to distinguish between faith and the misuse of religious texts to support inhumane agendas. The endgame of dialogues with individuals who adopt fanatical religious beliefs to justify violence poses a significant challenge.

Doesn't this force us to consider whether certain forms of engagement, rather than fostering understanding, might inadvertently legitimise or embolden extremist viewpoints?

In summary. Are we wasting our f*cking time?

[truthpaste]

Jon, another excellent post with considered argument and demonstrating remarkable patience. I'm beginning to ask a few questions here though. I'd be interested in yours and others take on this. I'm not sure I possess the f*cking resolve patience or will to continue.

In the complex tapestry of global religious and political discussion, the challenge of engaging with individuals holding extreme, fundamentalist views, particularly those who justify violence through religious prophecies, is a futile one. Surely?

For me, this question becomes especially pertinent when discussing extremists who cite prophecies as justifications for genocide, ethnic cleansing, starvation, and other atrocities in the 21st century. It is essential to acknowledge that these positions starkly contrast with the fundamental teachings of Jesus, who preached love, compassion, and peace. Jesus, a Jew, taught principles that are diametrically opposed to any form of violence or hatred. Additionally, the ideology of Zionism, with its political and territorial ambitions, often rejects the New Testament, creating a further disconnect from the Christian messages of love and reconciliation.

But in the same way, there are, in some people's eyes, real and true Cardiff City supporters. It seems that in truthpaste's world, this applies to Christians too.

The dialogue with individuals holding such extremist beliefs presents a considerable challenge (under-f*cking-statement). On one hand, it is tempting to argue that reason and evidence-based dialogue can bridge divides and soften hardline stances. On the other hand, when beliefs are deeply entrenched and supported by a conviction in divine sanction, the scope for productive dialogue narrows significantly.

Referencing religious prophecy to justify severe human rights violations raises the question: are we witnessing not just a refusal to engage in meaningful discussion but potentially a form of trolling or even geopolitical destabilisation?

The use of such conflicts by extremists to further their narratives, irrespective of the human cost, points to a deep-seated fanaticism.

When engaging in discussions, surely it is crucial to distinguish between faith and the misuse of religious texts to support inhumane agendas. The endgame of dialogues with individuals who adopt fanatical religious beliefs to justify violence poses a significant challenge.

Doesn't this force us to consider whether certain forms of engagement, rather than fostering understanding, might inadvertently legitimise or embolden extremist viewpoints?

In summary. Are we wasting our f*cking time?

The main disconnection is you can (Jon-like) spout the bile re the texts, but you are not willing to examine any evidence for their validity or otherwise, so all we are left with is a drive-thru look at an issue and jumping to a quickest convenient and popular majority viewpoint whilst trashing anyone who thinks differently.
If you can't ask *questions to understand (which some actually now have) where other people are coming from, then you are not really engaging the discussion.

* For example I asked Jon to support his world-view and he's typed loads of words since I asked but is unable to address why he believes what he believes; so all he is left with is bile.

[Taunton Blue Genie]

Jon, another excellent post with considered argument and demonstrating remarkable patience. I'm beginning to ask a few questions here though. I'd be interested in yours and others take on this. I'm not sure I possess the f*cking resolve patience or will to continue.

In the complex tapestry of global religious and political discussion, the challenge of engaging with individuals holding extreme, fundamentalist views, particularly those who justify violence through religious prophecies, is a futile one. Surely?

For me, this question becomes especially pertinent when discussing extremists who cite prophecies as justifications for genocide, ethnic cleansing, starvation, and other atrocities in the 21st century. It is essential to acknowledge that these positions starkly contrast with the fundamental teachings of Jesus, who preached love, compassion, and peace. Jesus, a Jew, taught principles that are diametrically opposed to any form of violence or hatred. Additionally, the ideology of Zionism, with its political and territorial ambitions, often rejects the New Testament, creating a further disconnect from the Christian messages of love and reconciliation.

But in the same way, there are, in some people's eyes, real and true Cardiff City supporters. It seems that in truthpaste's world, this applies to Christians too.

The dialogue with individuals holding such extremist beliefs presents a considerable challenge (under-f*cking-statement). On one hand, it is tempting to argue that reason and evidence-based dialogue can bridge divides and soften hardline stances. On the other hand, when beliefs are deeply entrenched and supported by a conviction in divine sanction, the scope for productive dialogue narrows significantly.

Referencing religious prophecy to justify severe human rights violations raises the question: are we witnessing not just a refusal to engage in meaningful discussion but potentially a form of trolling or even geopolitical destabilisation?

The use of such conflicts by extremists to further their narratives, irrespective of the human cost, points to a deep-seated fanaticism.

When engaging in discussions, surely it is crucial to distinguish between faith and the misuse of religious texts to support inhumane agendas. The endgame of dialogues with individuals who adopt fanatical religious beliefs to justify violence poses a significant challenge.

Doesn't this force us to consider whether certain forms of engagement, rather than fostering understanding, might inadvertently legitimise or embolden extremist viewpoints?

In summary. Are we wasting our f*cking time?

Yep. Hence my ceasing to contribute regarding this subject matter on here. Trying to communicate with a dogmatic extremist that misrepresents one's statements and who comes over as nasty and patronising* is a complete waste of time.

*I don't think this zealot's attempts at being patronising actually have an effect as he is far less less intelligent, less worldly and far more indocrinated than several of his major detractors on here.

Just give up. You'll feel better for it, old fruit.

[stevo]

As a Christian, he doesn’t seem like a Christian to be honest. Not a good spokesperson for my beliefs.

[stevo]

Thanks for that. So, that all comes from the Old Testament. But the Jews then went on to reject Jesus as the son of God, which leads us to the New Testament, so why do you appear to care so much for Jews over Muslims?

[truthpaste]

Thanks for that. So, that all comes from the Old Testament. But the Jews then went on to reject Jesus as the son of God, which leads us to the New Testament, so why do you appear to care so much for Jews over Muslims?

That's a very pertinent and quality question. The short answer is that every genuine Christian serves and worships a Man who was born a Jew and will return as the 'Lion of the Tribe of Judah'.
I promise you I will give you a proper and full answer to such a good question, but as I am taking my daughter to catch a plane at 5am tomorrow then I'd better sign off now and get back to you across this Easter weekend.
Have a good one

[stevo]

Yeah, but it’s all Hamas’ fault, apparently

[truthpaste]

Yeah, but it’s all Hamas’ fault, apparently

Nobody in this discussion has said that, so if you are going to weigh in then stick to the facts.

[stevo]

Nobody in this discussion has said that, so if you are going to weigh in then stick to the facts.

I refer you to your previous post:

https://www.ccmb.co.uk/showthread.ph...=1#post5499826

[stevo]

Sadly, yes. I think we are.

[truthpaste]

Thanks for that. So, that all comes from the Old Testament. But the Jews then went on to reject Jesus as the son of God, which leads us to the New Testament, so why do you appear to care so much for Jews over Muslims?

I'll try and keep this as concise as possible as there are many aspects to this, and I will attempt to keep it jargon free too:-

Before Abraham (who became the first Jew) met with Almighty God his family faith involved praying to a moon god a number of times per day; after he had met the God of the Bible he was promised that his seed would become a nation that would bless the entire world; the key way this would happen would be because one of his offspring (some 2000 years later) would be born (on His mother's side, Mary) in Bethlehem; the Lord Jesus Christ of course. Jesus later explained that only via His death and resurrection were individuals (by trusting in Him) able to get right with God and have an eternal home in Heaven, free from death, sorrow and pain.

Now Abraham like many of us was an impatient guy and decided he'd waited long enough for Sarah his wife to produce this son of promise, so he slept with his maidservent and produced a son, Ishmael. Later on God showed that He could be trusted and Sarah gave birth to Isaac who later had a son Jacob. God changed Jacob's name to Israel and he produced 12 sons who individually seeded each tribe of Israel right down to the present day. In other words, Jacob's son Judah, produced the Tribe of Judah and Mary was one of Judah's descendants therefore Christ was born into that Tribe (which was his human heritage); his Father being God, hence the miracle of the virgin birth.

Jesus, as you will know is the One all Christian's believe in and the One they know will return to rule on Earth in a coming day; you may remember saying a section of the Lord's prayer - "....thy kingdom come, they will be done, on earth as it is in Heaven...".

So as you can see, the 'King of the Jews' is essentially and eternally connected to Christians for ever.

But that does leave one big question, what about that other son, Ishmael? Well Ishmael didn't follow the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, he followed the family religion, and worshipped the moon god, praying a number of times a day to that same god.
Therefore it is no mystery that every Mosque has a moon visible on the outside of the building. I've included an image of the one in Cardiff Bay, see what is placed at the highest point....!

There's a lot more to add to this including why the Jews will be key in the God's Plans in the near future (having been set aside to allow the Church to be God's 'mouthpiece' since 30AD); so if you have more questions then I'd be happy to add the details in the areas that you'd like more information on. But also bear this in mind, I haven't just picked a religious book off the shelf, I've examined thousands of claims in the Bible over the last 45 years and realised that ultimately it's content couldn't have possibly only come from the 40 human authors, it must have originated OUTSIDE our time and space.

p08y503v.jpg

[stevo]

I'll try and keep this as concise as possible as there are many aspects to this, and I will attempt to keep it jargon free too:-

Before Abraham (who became the first Jew) met with Almighty God his family faith involved praying to a moon god a number of times per day; after he had met the God of the Bible he was promised that his seed would become a nation that would bless the entire world; the key way this would happen would be because one of his offspring (some 2000 years later) would be born (on His mother's side, Mary) in Bethlehem; the Lord Jesus Christ of course. Jesus later explained that only via His death and resurrection were individuals (by trusting in Him) able to get right with God and have an eternal home in Heaven, free from death, sorrow and pain.

Now Abraham like many of us was an impatient guy and decided he'd waited long enough for Sarah his wife to produce this son of promise, so he slept with his maidservent and produced a son, Ishmael. Later on God showed that He could be trusted and Sarah gave birth to Isaac who later had a son Jacob. God changed Jacob's name to Israel and he produced 12 sons who individually seeded each tribe of Israel right down to the present day. In other words, Jacob's son Judah, produced the Tribe of Judah and Mary was one of Judah's descendants therefore Christ was born into that Tribe (which was his human heritage); his Father being God, hence the miracle of the virgin birth.

Jesus, as you will know is the One all Christian's believe in and the One they know will return to rule on Earth in a coming day; you may remember saying a section of the Lord's prayer - "....thy kingdom come, they will be done, on earth as it is in Heaven...".

So as you can see, the 'King of the Jews' is essentially and eternally connected to Christians for ever.

But that does leave one big question, what about that other son, Ishmael? Well Ishmael didn't follow the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, he followed the family religion, and worshipped the moon god, praying a number of times a day to that same god.
Therefore it is no mystery that every Mosque has a moon visible on the outside of the building. I've included an image of the one in Cardiff Bay, see what is placed at the highest point....!

There's a lot more to add to this including why the Jews will be key in the God's Plans in the near future (having been set aside to allow the Church to be God's 'mouthpiece' since 30AD); so if you have more questions then I'd be happy to add the details in the areas that you'd like more information on. But also bear this in mind, I haven't just picked a religious book off the shelf, I've examined thousands of claims in the Bible over the last 45 years and realised that ultimately it's content couldn't have possibly only come from the 40 human authors, it must have originated OUTSIDE our time and space.

p08y503v.jpg

Thank you for that. Very interesting. But it doesn’t explain why you have more respect for Jews over Muslims even though it was the Jews who rejected Jesus as the son of God (and continue to do so) and crucified him.

[truthpaste]

Back with the Crisis:

This REPORT is from early this morning by CNN

Devastation in Gaza as Israel wages war on Hamas

President Joe Biden said Saudi Arabia and other Arab countries are “prepared to fully recognize Israel” during remarks at an off-camera fundraiser Thursday night, according to reporters in the room.

Biden repeated calls for a “post-Gaza plan” for Israel, including “a train to a two-state solution.”

The remarks reflect Biden’s increased willingness to publicly call for Israel to increase efforts to protect Palestinian civilians in Gaza.

"I won't go into detail now. But look, I've been working with the Saudis and with all the other Arab countries, including Egypt and Jordan and Qatar. They're prepared to fully recognize Israel, fully recognize Israel for the first time,” Biden said, according to reports from journalists in the room.
“But there has to be a post-Gaza plan, and there has to be a train to a two-state solution, it doesn't have to occur today, but there has to be a progression, and I think we can do that,” Biden said.

Arab states offered to recognize Israel in 2002 in exchange for a Palestinian state in the Israeli-occupied West Bank and Gaza, with East Jerusalem as its capital. Israel rejected the proposal then.

The fundraiser, which featured Biden in conversation with former presidents Barack Obama and Bill Clinton, was interrupted at least four times by protesters, with at least three calling for an immediate ceasefire in Gaza.

“That's alright. Let them go. There's a lot of people who are very, very — there are too many innocent victims, Israeli and Palestinian. We've got to get more food and medicine, supplies in to the Palestinians,” Biden said, according to reports.
“But we can't forget, Israel is in a position where its very existence is at stake. You have to have all those people. They weren't killed. They were massacred. They were massacred.”

[stevo]

Al Jazerra banned from broadcasting from Israel


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-68708984

[the other bob wilson]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-68710515

[Citizen's Nephew]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-68710515

"The Israel Defense Forces (IDF) said it was conducting a "thorough review" into the incident." ....that reassuring