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Thread: Why is it with the Tories we have

  1. #76

    Re: Why is it with the Tories we have

    Quote Originally Posted by Maurice Swan View Post
    Ye gods....what a shower we have trying to run the UK..and I include all parties.
    I have always voted Conservative in my life.....but ...just LOOK at this photo of animated backslapping..Pathetic:
    Attachment 5925

    Beyond belief...when they reverse what they previously already introduced mostly...and which Liz Truss was sacked for...

    A sensible comment: https://www.express.co.uk/news/polit...ag-stealth-tax

    We need an Oliver Cromwell...or at least vote for the Reform Party....
    The Reform party is full of right wing nutters mo

    If you belong to that circus probably best you stay in France

  2. #77

    Re: Why is it with the Tories we have

    Quote Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY View Post
    You lying tory spoilt kid
    So this lying old tit and women who have been raped but fear coming forward .....are the same ?

    That must be what you think sonny because I don't .....and I know that the old war hero who you trumped up is a bare faced liar who wasn't an ex para , he wasn't even in the scouts!

    You are as guilty as him you coward for using his non story to drum up your right wing views

    And after being told it was all rubbish you have failed to take the the opportunity to hold your hand up and accept it

    This is no surprise , it's you MO , as the detectives would say

  3. #78

    Re: Why is it with the Tories we have

    Quote Originally Posted by jon1959 View Post
    James throws 'bigot' around all the time.

    But his own definition says it is about someone 'unreasonably antagonistic' towards people on the basis of their membership of a particular group.

    James (and pipster) clearly have their own definition of unreasonable (one the High Court wouldn't accept). Mine is closer to yours Sludge. It is absolutely reasonable to be antagonistic to a group of people who enable actions that harm others - through their political choices, the values they promote and the actions they support.

    I never liked the Tories (wasn't an enthusiastic supporter of the alternative parties either) but my antagonism towards them was baked in during the Miners Strike. They sometimes throw up some more sympathetic faces, they sometimes make sensible policy decisions, but their default is to wrap themselves in the union flag, wave the King James bible and reduce the state so that those in need are dependent on charity. I am antagonistic toward people who think and behave like that (and for now that includes Starmer and his mates if not the whole Labour Party which still hangs on to some different values).

    And when it comes to groups it matters if those are groups you are born into or ones you freely choose to join or support. Anyone who is antagonistic toward people because of their race, ethnicity, gender/sex, religion/culture, disability etc is despicable and sick. We can and should debate the way those inherited characteristics play out - especially the cultural aspects - but where there is no choice the question of reasonableness doesn't arise.

    But there is a clear choice about which party programme to support. People are not born Tory, Labour or Plaid. They aren't born to enjoy killing wild animals. They aren't born to exploit or be part of criminal gangs fleecing pensioners of their savings. It is completely right and reasonable to be antagonistic to people who become members of groups that cause harm. I include the Tories in that. James and his friend clearly don't but that is because they like what the Tories do and say - not because they are on the right side of something called bigotry.
    Good post Jon.

  4. #79

    Re: Why is it with the Tories we have

    Quote Originally Posted by the other bob wilson View Post
    Good post Jon.
    It's true that people don't choose their race, which is why we rightly view racism as worse than bigotry. People are not stuck with their religion though. They may be born into it, but it's a personal decision to continue with it, so under the above scenario it is fair game to be antagonistic towards them. And whilst I agree that abuse of unchosen characteristics are worse, surely the issue is behaving like an arse? If someone is abusive to someone, it may be worse for something they have no control over, but it doesn't mean that abuse for other reasons is okay.

    Equally, no one doubts the party that has been in power for two thirds of the post war period hasn't don't many bad things. They have. But is it right or fair to abuse anyone who may support them for that? if someone votes Labour, would it be fair to accuse them of turning a blind eye to grooming gangs, or supporting the Iraq war, or rising unemployment or bankrupting the country or any of the other tropes unfairly thrown at them? I would suggest it wouldnt be.

    The alternative is a bit of open mindedness, a bit of tolerance, a bit of trying to understand others views, a bit of humility and a bit of civility. That strikes me as the fat better, less ignorant and certainly less bigoted approach to politics.

  5. #80

    Re: Why is it with the Tories we have

    Quote Originally Posted by jon1959 View Post
    James throws 'bigot' around all the time.

    But his own definition says it is about someone 'unreasonably antagonistic' towards people on the basis of their membership of a particular group.

    James (and pipster) clearly have their own definition of unreasonable (one the High Court wouldn't accept). Mine is closer to yours Sludge. It is absolutely reasonable to be antagonistic to a group of people who enable actions that harm others - through their political choices, the values they promote and the actions they support.

    I never liked the Tories (wasn't an enthusiastic supporter of the alternative parties either) but my antagonism towards them was baked in during the Miners Strike. They sometimes throw up some more sympathetic faces, they sometimes make sensible policy decisions, but their default is to wrap themselves in the union flag, wave the King James bible and reduce the state so that those in need are dependent on charity. I am antagonistic toward people who think and behave like that (and for now that includes Starmer and his mates if not the whole Labour Party which still hangs on to some different values).

    And when it comes to groups it matters if those are groups you are born into or ones you freely choose to join or support. Anyone who is antagonistic toward people because of their race, ethnicity, gender/sex, religion/culture, disability etc is despicable and sick. We can and should debate the way those inherited characteristics play out - especially the cultural aspects - but where there is no choice the question of reasonableness doesn't arise.

    But there is a clear choice about which party programme to support. People are not born Tory, Labour or Plaid. They aren't born to enjoy killing wild animals. They aren't born to exploit or be part of criminal gangs fleecing pensioners of their savings. It is completely right and reasonable to be antagonistic to people who become members of groups that cause harm. I include the Tories in that. James and his friend clearly don't but that is because they like what the Tories do and say - not because they are on the right side of something called bigotry.
    In respect of your last paragraph,I take it you also despise Labour ,particularly with the role it played in the conflict in Iraq?

    Also Starmer doesn’t appear keen on a ceasefire in Gaza.

  6. #81
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    Re: Why is it with the Tories we have

    Quote Originally Posted by TWGL1 View Post
    In respect of your last paragraph,I take it you also despise Labour ,particularly with the role it played in the conflict in Iraq?

    Also Starmer doesn’t appear keen on a ceasefire in Gaza.
    In my opinion Labour still has a different and more progressive DNA than the Tories (and the Lib Dems) but that is eroding.

    I despise Blair and Starmer and their groupies, funders and enablers. Despise is not too strong a word for the war crimes of Blair or the war crime enabling of Starmer (and the serial lying).

    I was a Labour member for 30 years over 3 spells - most of my adult life - but no longer. I have a lot of time for many ordinary Labour supporters - most of whom are also trades unionists, campaigners or tenant organisers. As long as Labour has its roots feet in the trades union movement I believe passing personalities or policies can be corrected from below.

    If Labour cuts its ties to the trades unions and relies for funding and political direction on big donors (the direction of travel as individual subscriptions and donations have dropped drastically to be replaced by rich individuals, corporate donors and lobbyists) it will be no different from other parties - and I won't feel any residual obligation to vote for them. We're not there yet.

  7. #82

    Re: Why is it with the Tories we have

    Quote Originally Posted by jon1959 View Post
    In my opinion Labour still has a different and more progressive DNA than the Tories (and the Lib Dems) but that is eroding.

    I despise Blair and Starmer and their groupies, funders and enablers. Despise is not too strong a word for the war crimes of Blair or the war crime enabling of Starmer (and the serial lying).

    I was a Labour member for 30 years over 3 spells - most of my adult life - but no longer. I have a lot of time for many ordinary Labour supporters - most of whom are also trades unionists, campaigners or tenant organisers. As long as Labour has its roots feet in the trades union movement I believe passing personalities or policies can be corrected from below.

    If Labour cuts its ties to the trades unions and relies for funding and political direction on big donors (the direction of travel as individual subscriptions and donations have dropped drastically to be replaced by rich individuals, corporate donors and lobbyists) it will be no different from other parties - and I won't feel any residual obligation to vote for them. We're not there yet.
    I personally feel that in my lifetime that the labour party and the liberals and others will pull through proportional representation

    There appears to be a lot of secret talks about it all and it must be done to defeat the tories on a regular basis ....the split in the opposition parties just hands the Tories power by the back door

    If it doesn't appear possible then that's fine but if the labour party get in and just sit on a big majority then they can naff off and I will vote green till my toes turn up

  8. #83

    Re: Why is it with the Tories we have

    Quote Originally Posted by JamesWales View Post
    It's true that people don't choose their race, which is why we rightly view racism as worse than bigotry. People are not stuck with their religion though. They may be born into it, but it's a personal decision to continue with it, so under the above scenario it is fair game to be antagonistic towards them. And whilst I agree that abuse of unchosen characteristics are worse, surely the issue is behaving like an arse? If someone is abusive to someone, it may be worse for something they have no control over, but it doesn't mean that abuse for other reasons is okay.

    Equally, no one doubts the party that has been in power for two thirds of the post war period hasn't don't many bad things. They have. But is it right or fair to abuse anyone who may support them for that? if someone votes Labour, would it be fair to accuse them of turning a blind eye to grooming gangs, or supporting the Iraq war, or rising unemployment or bankrupting the country or any of the other tropes unfairly thrown at them? I would suggest it wouldnt be.

    The alternative is a bit of open mindedness, a bit of tolerance, a bit of trying to understand others views, a bit of humility and a bit of civility. That strikes me as the fat better, less ignorant and certainly less bigoted approach to politics.
    All I said was good post Jon, I donít see any of the things you refer to in his message.

  9. #84

    Re: Why is it with the Tories we have

    Quote Originally Posted by jon1959 View Post
    In my opinion Labour still has a different and more progressive DNA than the Tories (and the Lib Dems) but that is eroding.

    I despise Blair and Starmer and their groupies, funders and enablers. Despise is not too strong a word for the war crimes of Blair or the war crime enabling of Starmer (and the serial lying).

    I was a Labour member for 30 years over 3 spells - most of my adult life - but no longer. I have a lot of time for many ordinary Labour supporters - most of whom are also trades unionists, campaigners or tenant organisers. As long as Labour has its roots feet in the trades union movement I believe passing personalities or policies can be corrected from below.

    If Labour cuts its ties to the trades unions and relies for funding and political direction on big donors (the direction of travel as individual subscriptions and donations have dropped drastically to be replaced by rich individuals, corporate donors and lobbyists) it will be no different from other parties - and I won't feel any residual obligation to vote for them. We're not there yet.
    Ultimately itís a persons democratic right to vote , but why certain people should use inflammatory language and rhetoric towards a person who doesnít agree with their political beliefs is beyond and Iím not sure how this is acceptable to anyone.

  10. #85
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    Re: Why is it with the Tories we have

    Quote Originally Posted by TWGL1 View Post
    Ultimately itís a persons democratic right to vote , but why certain people should use inflammatory language and rhetoric towards a person who doesnít agree with their political beliefs is beyond and Iím not sure how this is acceptable to anyone.
    I answered your question.

    At no point have I advocated or defended 'inflammatory language and rhetoric'. That is all your own work!

  11. #86

    Re: Why is it with the Tories we have

    Quote Originally Posted by jon1959 View Post
    'Is post covid Tory Britain worse than post financial crisis Labour Britain?'

    To add to Eric's points above, the state has been so hollowed out between 2010 and 2019 (national government as well as local - see the criminal justice system crisis as one example) that there is little collective resilience to provide a net behind individuals and families who have seen wages fall and costs rise over that period. We have a poorer (for most) and weaker country than pre financial crisis. Some of the causes are beyond the control of any government, but the Cult of Austerity was home grown.
    Having seen your posts, you're clearly quite far to the left. Has there ever been a time in your life where you've thought the public sector was bloated or wasting money?

  12. #87

    Re: Why is it with the Tories we have

    Quote Originally Posted by jon1959 View Post
    I answered your question.

    At no point have I advocated or defended 'inflammatory language and rhetoric'. That is all your own work!
    I don’t think so , take a look at your last paragraph…..ultimately people can vote for who they want without being piled on.

    I’m voting conservative next time

  13. #88
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    Re: Why is it with the Tories we have

    Quote Originally Posted by TWGL1 View Post
    I don’t think so , take a look at your last paragraph…..ultimately people can vote for who they want without being piled on.

    I’m voting conservative next time
    You surprise me (not).

  14. #89
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    Re: Why is it with the Tories we have

    Quote Originally Posted by NinianOpinion1927 View Post
    Having seen your posts, you're clearly quite far to the left. Has there ever been a time in your life where you've thought the public sector was bloated or wasting money?
    I have seen some waste - yes. But unlike some others I donít think that defines the public sector.

  15. #90

    Re: Why is it with the Tories we have

    Quote Originally Posted by NinianOpinion1927 View Post
    Having seen your posts, you're clearly quite far to the left. Has there ever been a time in your life where you've thought the public sector was bloated or wasting money?
    Oh look, we’ve got a new multi.

  16. #91

    Re: Why is it with the Tories we have

    Quote Originally Posted by TWGL1 View Post
    I don’t think so , take a look at your last paragraph…..ultimately people can vote for who they want without being piled on.

    I’m voting conservative next time
    What a surprise 😲

  17. #92

    Re: Why is it with the Tories we have

    Quote Originally Posted by jon1959 View Post
    In my opinion Labour still has a different and more progressive DNA than the Tories (and the Lib Dems) but that is eroding.

    I despise Blair and Starmer and their groupies, funders and enablers. Despise is not too strong a word for the war crimes of Blair or the war crime enabling of Starmer (and the serial lying).

    I was a Labour member for 30 years over 3 spells - most of my adult life - but no longer. I have a lot of time for many ordinary Labour supporters - most of whom are also trades unionists, campaigners or tenant organisers. As long as Labour has its roots feet in the trades union movement I believe passing personalities or policies can be corrected from below.

    If Labour cuts its ties to the trades unions and relies for funding and political direction on big donors (the direction of travel as individual subscriptions and donations have dropped drastically to be replaced by rich individuals, corporate donors and lobbyists) it will be no different from other parties - and I won't feel any residual obligation to vote for them. We're not there yet.
    I always sense a feeling of doom when I see/hear the word 'progressive'. A bit of a cloaking device to hide a host of different ideas..

  18. #93

    Re: Why is it with the Tories we have

    Quote Originally Posted by the other bob wilson View Post
    Oh look, we’ve got a new multi.
    I'm not a multi

  19. #94

    Re: Why is it with the Tories we have

    Stop The Boats

    If 100000 have successfully used this passage since 2018 then it would appear that around 20000 people per year are coming

    So given that migration is 600000 per year into the UK shouldn't it be pretty easy to deal with this without telling the country lies that we are being invaded by sea ?

    20000 v 580000 ?

    It's almost like the Tories are trying to scare people into voting for them

    Gosh they would try that trick would they ?

  20. #95

    Re: Why is it with the Tories we have

    Quote Originally Posted by jon1959 View Post
    You surprise me (not).
    And ?

  21. #96

    Re: Why is it with the Tories we have

    Quote Originally Posted by TWGL1 View Post
    And ?
    It's no good playing the oh I am open minded politically card if you are a tory , especially after the last 13 years

    I think you have got to be incredibly stupid or a raving tory to vote for them but it's up to you

    At least you know where you stand with me , I absolutely will never vote Tory and if I had to vote monster raving , green , Liberal, Labour or whatever to keep them out I would

    You however seem to be voting for the Tories and its not really a surprise to many who read your posts ?

  22. #97

    Re: Why is it with the Tories we have

    Quote Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY View Post
    It's no good playing the oh I am open minded politically card if you are a tory , especially after the last 13 years

    I think you have got to be incredibly stupid or a raving tory to vote for them but it's up to you

    At least you know where you stand with me , I absolutely will never vote Tory and if I had to vote monster raving , green , Liberal, Labour or whatever to keep them out I would

    You however seem to be voting for the Tories and its not really a surprise to many who read your posts ?
    Thatís an assumption to make . I think in a general election is probably best to keep an open mind , but definitely on a local level.

    The present incumbents are a shower , but as a household we are probably marginally better off, although that could change of course.

    Iíve got nothing in common with any M.P and itís not as if we are spoilt for choice and I definitely disliked the Conservative and Labour parties for their lockstep diktats and policies during Covid.

    Why donít you put your hat in the ring

  23. #98

    Re: Why is it with the Tories we have

    Quote Originally Posted by TWGL1 View Post
    Thatís an assumption to make . I think in a general election is probably best to keep an open mind , but definitely on a local level.

    The present incumbents are a shower , but as a household we are probably marginally better off, although that could change of course.

    Iíve got nothing in common with any M.P and itís not as if we are spoilt for choice and I definitely disliked the Conservative and Labour parties for their lockstep diktats and policies during Covid.

    Why donít you put your hat in the ring
    I would be looking for an anyone but tory candidate or merger of the labour and liberal party or Proportional Reprsentation so maybe one day there will be a place for me and I will take over after a power struggle

    Until then it's whoever has a chance of beating the enemy

  24. #99

    Re: Why is it with the Tories we have

    Quote Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY View Post
    I would be looking for an anyone but tory candidate or merger of the labour and liberal party or Proportional Reprsentation so maybe one day there will be a place for me and I will take over after a power struggle

    Until then it's whoever has a chance of beating the enemy
    Just remember they all have many of same political views and policies give or take the odd thing. I actually Hope Labour get in and prove many people wrong but they can’t change that much.

    Gordon Brown proved that

  25. #100

    Re: Why is it with the Tories we have

    Quote Originally Posted by TWGL1 View Post
    Just remember they all have many of same political views and policies give or take the odd thing. I actually Hope Labour get in and prove many people wrong but they can’t change that much.

    Gordon Brown proved that
    I hope labour get in and change the voting system , if they don't then I am voting green

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