Looking at Celtic's forum (Re: David Turnbull)

[Harry Paget Flashman]

That is true, they will see intricacies, movement, and intelligence. those things are harder to spot. although if those things don't come off for a considerable amount of time, then that player is going to look a bit shit, and fans can see that.

EDIT.

I'm out.

[TheBirchgrovePub]

I agree that managers or scouts will obviously have more knowledge but I’m talking that the average match going fan will have a good read on a player (you have extreme views from a certain amount of course) but a lot of fans will tend to be on the money with a player they have watched for 3 years straight. Occasionally a player will have a new lease of life somewhere else and go against what has been said, but the first thing I normally do when we have signed someone is have a look at what the fans think. If they are collectively rejoicing that he is leaving then it isn’t normally a good thing.

The striker for example has been widely criticised but Bristol city fans love him, with a caveat that he could be a bit poor at times but was a firm fan favourite for his attitude and moments of quality. Take it with less importance than Turnbull as he was at Bristol a few years ago now but it sounds like we’re getting a good character and good player in.

It is not all doom and gloom with turnbull either, he is apparently good on the ball and can score a goal from midfield. Just slow and lazy is a big worry when going into our midfield that is already like that and you need to press in midfield to have a chance these days

[Rock_Flock_of_Five]

Players and coaches at a professional level see the game differently than casual fans.

Then why did our professional coaching staff decide, after watching hours of footage that we didn't have access to, that Runnarson would be a good fit?
Particularly when the Arsenal fans were saying he's one of the worst 'keepers they'd ever seen? (I don't have a vendetta against Runnarson btw, it's just fresh in the mind that's all)

[Tuerto]

They also see the simple things that do come off 100s of times that you miss.

But you don't even realise it.

I beg to differ, give me an example then

[Rock_Flock_of_Five]

Fans aren't far wrong for the best part. We may not see or 'get' certain intricacies on occasion, but thankfully, football is a simple game, and we as fans can see what is in front of us for the best part. It's snobbery, and the rise of 24 hr football punditry bullshit seems to have suckered in plenty.

Amen!

[TheBirchgrovePub]

Then why did our professional coaching staff decide, after watching hours of footage that we didn't have access to, that Runnarson would be a good fit?
Particularly when the Arsenal fans were saying he's one of the worst 'keepers they'd ever seen? (I don't have a vendetta against Runnarson btw, it's just fresh in the mind that's all)

Yeah I think Harry is getting a bit carried away, for the most part analysts and scouts are normal football people and they’re pretty low entry level jobs. There will be hundreds of “scouts” knocking around the lower leagues who aren’t paid much money, travel to numerous games and get very little reward for it. A lot of people could get into that line of work it’s just so competitive in terms of numbers that many rarely do

[Eric the Half a Bee]

Yeah I think Harry is getting a bit carried away, for the most part analysts and scouts are normal football people and they’re pretty low entry level jobs.

Surely there lies the difference? I've seen hundreds of City games but I wouldn't consider myself a "football person", but a fan. Massive difference.

[Eric the Half a Bee]

I would agree with him. Overall, fans are good judges of players they watch week after week.

No they're not. They think they're good or shit. Most of them are biased in one way or another. How many fans take an objective view of a player with an inside knowledge of how the game is played?

[TheBirchgrovePub]

Surely there lies the difference? I've seen hundreds of City games but I wouldn't consider myself a "football person", but a fan. Massive difference.

I think if you wanted to become a lower league scout or analyst and were willing to put the hours in and have a half decent understanding of the game then you’d be the same. I think you’re putting them all on a pedestal when in reality that is the best of the best at the top level, the lower leagues is just normal people half tuned into football.

Look at punditry as an example, plucking two names out of thin air but are you telling me Martin Keown and Lee Dixon regularly see things we don’t and greatly enhance our experience by sharing their expertise?

[Tuerto]

Surely there lies the difference? I've seen hundreds of City games but I wouldn't consider myself a "football person", but a fan. Massive difference.

Fair enough, but all a lot of these people have done is sat in on courses, done their badges, been told what to look for, pretty much like any job. You could do that, in fact plenty of people on here could do it. We're not talking about the people in football who are on a different level in terms of how they see players now and in five years time. That's serious shit.

[Eric the Half a Bee]

I think if you wanted to become a lower league scout or analyst and were willing to put the hours in and have a half decent understanding of the game then you’d be the same. I think you’re putting them all on a pedestal when in reality that is the best of the best at the top level, the lower leagues is just normal people half tuned into football.

Look at punditry as an example, plucking two names out of thin air but are you telling me Martin Keown and Lee Dixon regularly see things we don’t and greatly enhance our experience by sharing their expertise?

I'm not putting scouts on a pedestal, I think your average fan has less of a clue than you think.

Regarding pundits, I guess it depends on what you are after. During a game there's no time for any detailed analysis, but when time allows I reckon the likes of Keown and Dixon would destroy most fans with their knowledge.

[Tuerto]

No they're not. They think they're good or shit. Most of them are biased in one way or another. How many fans take an objective view of a player with an inside knowledge of how the game is played?

Massive generalising there Eric. Overall, football supporters can see if a footballer is good, bad or indifferent.

[Eric the Half a Bee]

Massive generalising there Eric. Overall, football supporters can see if a footballer is good, bad or indifferent.

Ok, there's 3 options, not 2.

You're a scout. Cardiff City are looking for a striker and a centre midfielder. Recommend me two cheap options that are better than we have and explain how both of those would fit in with what we have and would enhance and improve that.

[Tuerto]

I'm not putting scouts on a pedestal, I think your average fan has less of a clue than you think.

Regarding pundits, I guess it depends on what you are after. During a game there's no time for any detailed analysis, but when time allows I reckon the likes of Keown and Dixon would destroy most fans with their knowledge.

Because they've played, so they can see what a player was trying to do in a certain situation, or when a player hasn't moved a couple of yards to create space etc, ora defender hasn't got across quick enough and all that stuff. As fans, we are looking at players with the ball at feet, we are looking at them in defensive-attacking situations, we are watching what they do with the ball, which is the most important aspect of the game. Franco Baresi had the best movement i have ever seen on a defender, the man was super intelligent. As fans, most of us wouldn't have seen that. He was also a world class player with the ball at his feet. If he hadn't been then all the intelligence and movement in the world wouldn't have meant a thing.

[TheBirchgrovePub]

I'm not putting scouts on a pedestal, I think your average fan has less of a clue than you think.

Regarding pundits, I guess it depends on what you are after. During a game there's no time for any detailed analysis, but when time allows I reckon the likes of Keown and Dixon would destroy most fans with their knowledge.

There are idiotic fans no doubt about it, but you only have to have a chat with someone to work out if they know their stuff or not.

[Tuerto]

Ok, there's 3 options, not 2.

You're a scout. Cardiff City are looking for a striker and a centre midfielder. Recommend me two cheap options that are better than we have and explain how both of those would fit in with what we have and would enhance and improve that.

Is this some kind of role play shit......

[Eric the Half a Bee]

There are idiotic fans no doubt about it, but you only have to have a chat with someone to work out if they know their stuff or not.

Just to clarify, are you suggesting many fans would have the knowledge of Keown or Dixon (or other pundits with decades of top flight experience)?

[TheBirchgrovePub]

Ok, there's 3 options, not 2.

You're a scout. Cardiff City are looking for a striker and a centre midfielder. Recommend me two cheap options that are better than we have and explain how both of those would fit in with what we have and would enhance and improve that.

That is moving the goalposts massively in terms of the discussion.

Scouts will obviously have a wider knowledge of other teams and players, it’s their job

[Eric the Half a Bee]

Is this some kind of role play shit......

No, I'm just making a point.

I would expect a scout to give a detailed analysis of a player, based on what they see, whether that be live or on video etc. How that player would fit in with the way we play etc.

Yes, most fans know if a player is good, crap or indifferent, but I hardly see a manager going to a scout to ask about a player and having this conversation....

"So, that Sludge Factory guy, what do you make of him?"
"Tackles a lot, keeps telling the centre backs to whack the ball long, then the team loses possession and he tries to win it back"
"I don't care about that, was he good, bad or indifferent?"

[Eric the Half a Bee]

That is moving the goalposts massively in terms of the discussion.

Scouts will obviously have a wider knowledge of other teams and players, it’s their job

Thank feck for that. So we finally acknowledge that scouts have more knowledge than the average fan. Excellent.

[TheBirchgrovePub]

Just to clarify, are you suggesting many fans would have the knowledge of Keown or Dixon (or other pundits with decades of top flight experience)?

In terms of punditry I don’t think they say anything different to what a clued up fan would say no. Drill down into it in a one on one with them on the performance from Goutas if we both sat there and watched him for 90 minutes tomorrow and they would obviously be able to offer a lot more detailed analysis. But not many scouts are ex players

Go watch a few under 18 or under 21 games and you will find yourself talking to a guy who’s at his 20th game of the month and you realise he is just a normal football fan, willing to put in the miles and hours in a lonely job for very little reward. A lot of people could do it

[TheBirchgrovePub]

Thank feck for that. So we finally acknowledge that scouts have more knowledge than the average fan. Excellent.

I think you’re confusing a wider knowledge with more knowledge

[Tuerto]

No, I'm just making a point.

I would expect a scout to give a detailed analysis of a player, based on what they see, whether that be live or on video etc. How that player would fit in with the way we play etc.

Yes, most fans know if a player is good, crap or indifferent, but I hardly see a manager going to a scout to ask about a player and having this conversation....

"So, that Sludge Factory guy, what do you make of him?"
"Tackles a lot, keeps telling the centre backs to whack the ball long, then the team loses possession and he tries to win it back"
"I don't care about that, was he good, bad or indifferent?"

Right, i get what you're saying. My point is that overall (In my opinion) Football fans can pretty much see what is in front of them. We may not be able to see the finer details, but thankfully, football for the best part isn't about the finer details, especially at Championship level. A football fan may be able to see about 80% of a players ability, 20% is beyond most of us. Although 80% on any Exam paper is an 'A'

[Eric the Half a Bee]

In terms of punditry I don’t think they say anything different to what a clued up fan would say no. Drill down into it in a one on one with them on the performance from Goutas if we both sat there and watched him for 90 minutes tomorrow and they would obviously be able to offer a lot more detailed analysis. But not many scouts are ex players

Go watch a few under 18 or under 21 games and you will find yourself talking to a guy who’s at his 20th game of the month and you realise he is just a normal football fan, willing to put in the miles and hours in a lonely job for very little reward. A lot of people could do it

Have you ever had the chance to drill down into it with one of them? I doubt it.

Question for you - Kieffer Moore. How do you think he would have fit into our team? I know what Nathan Blake thinks and he's gone into it in some detail.

[Eric the Half a Bee]

Right, i get what you're saying. My point is that overall (In my opinion) Football fans can pretty much see what is in front of them. We may not be able to see the finer details, but thankfully, football for the best part isn't about the finer details, especially at Championship level. A football fan may be able to see about 80% of a players ability, 20% is beyond most of us. Although 80% on any Exam paper is an 'A'

Of course it's about the finer details. That's what separates sides who get transfers right on a regular basis to us.