Quote Originally Posted by jon1959 View Post
‘Surely you realise’…. ‘Surely you recognise’…. Surely I don’t!

There is nothing outdated in realising and recognising that the wealth, power and privilege of the UK establishment has nothing to do with the political left which exists to challenge those things. A few sociology departments does not offset the vast and growing concentration of establishment power that exists to maintain that wealth, power and privilege. In my experience it is only the apologists for that inequality and abuse that argue the analysis is now irrelevant.

If you insist on widening the view to take in the crimes of parasitic bureaucratic castes in states that claim to be inspired by Marx and Lenin then all I can say is those regimes are not of the political left. The ‘left’ were among the first victims of those autocratic regimes. But that is a massive deflection anyway from the Andy Beckett article that started this thread which was clearly directed at the history and current threats of political violence directed at the left in the UK - that you claimed no one believes.

The terms still have meaning and value. You seem to think they are no more than archaic flags in someone’s culture wars. Gluey seems to see the world through a lens of pro-WEF and anti-WEF - who is in the Swiss bunker and who isn’t. I disagree with you both.
How is the left challenging the establishment at the moment? Aren't most on the left cheering on the house of lords in the last week or two, praising the top universities decolonising programmes, trying to overturn the referendum to keep us in a huge free market and pretty content with the BBCs editorial stances? I'm not sure I see the challenging? Not in a real sense. Even less so in America, although there are of course other countries!

Ah, of course, when it goes disastrously wrong, then it doesn't count! Come on Jon, a great great many libes in history have been deeply ruined under left wing ideas and if you can't see that then I am very surprised.

I don't think they are entirely meaningless, but I think it's largely cultural flag waving, a borderline religious role more than an attempt at real problem solving.

Just sounds fanatical if only good things can exist under left wing politics, it's like those who say the same about islamic states or those states in history that must be true to the bibles teachings etc.

Shit governance and shit policies has little to do with the left/right scale IMO