Renationalising The Trains

[pipster]

Labour are suggesting they might do it?

If its cost effective let's have it !

And make energy , broadband , phones all in one

That's all fine and dandy Sludgey but... picture the scene - Sir Keir and Angie have just completed the total re nationalisation - we are back to British Rail. Responsible for all trains, track, repairs, drivers, conductors etc - fantastic. Until British Rail union members decide to go on strike for more (insert ludicrous demand here).

All of a sudden with great ease - they could bring down the entire rail network. Every person now employed by the Govt. East coast service is cr@p - we'll get companies to re tender and dont renew the current supplier - under British Rail - you are stuck with them.

Inefficiency, no motivation to innovate, probable political interference, zero accountability, zero competition, if you want that good luck to you. Much better off using the Japan Rail model - rather than the usual socialist guff policy that never worked and will fail again. But hey ho - I'm sure you have thought this through - and it will all be fine - just like it was in the 70's

[jon1959]

That's all fine and dandy Sludgey but... picture the scene - Sir Keir and Angie have just completed the total re nationalisation - we are back to British Rail. Responsible for all trains, track, repairs, drivers, conductors etc - fantastic. Until British Rail union members decide to go on strike for more (insert ludicrous demand here).

All of a sudden with great ease - they could bring down the entire rail network. Every person now employed by the Govt. East coast service is cr@p - we'll get companies to re tender and dont renew the current supplier - under British Rail - you are stuck with them.

Inefficiency, no motivation to innovate, probable political interference, zero accountability, zero competition, if you want that good luck to you. Much better off using the Japan Rail model - rather than the usual socialist guff policy that never worked and will fail again. But hey ho - I'm sure you have thought this through - and it will all be fine - just like it was in the 70's

Labour (Louise Haigh) nationalisation plans specifically exclude rolling stock and (I think) the track. It is just about bringing the operations of the train operating companies back into public control as and when the contracts expire.

Not sure of the rationale for this half and half plan - though assume it is so they can say it will not cost a penny (and will make big savings for the Treasury). The figure they are using is £2.2 billion per year after 5 years. With that they should be able to buy back the trains and track too - and have an integrated transport system.

It will make a change from the government temporarily nationalising routes when train franchises fail and then giving them away again when they have recovered. Or in other words a change from nationalising debt and privatising profit. Or in other words a change from tax payers subsidising shareholders. Or in other words parasite capitalism.

[HiVis]

Labour (Louise Haigh) nationalisation plans specifically exclude rolling stock and (I think) the track. It is just about bringing the operations of the train operating companies back into public control as and when the contracts expire.

Not sure of the rationale for this half and half plan - though assume it is so they can say it will not cost a penny (and will make big savings for the Treasury). The figure they are using is £2.2 billion per year after 5 years. With that they should be able to buy back the trains and track too - and have an integrated transport system.

It will make a change from the government temporarily nationalising routes when train franchises fail and then giving them away again when they have recovered. Or in other words a change from nationalising debt and privatising profit. Or in other words a change from tax payers subsidising shareholders. Or in other words parasite capitalism.

FOCs have to pay franchise fees whereas the state, when it takes over a franchise, does not. That's how the taxpayer recoups there money.

Anyway, I digress from the point I was making. Whether you believe in state or privately run is moot, what we really need is massive infrastructure investment in public works, public infrastructure, integrated bus, rail, light rail. These works creates jobs, wealth and improves productivity. Whatever happened to Labour being the party of investment - investment is what this country is crying out for.

We've seen how the Tories dithered over HS2, and whilst I'm not discussing the merits of HS2 or otherwise, its clear the Tories don't have a plan to invest in the UKs future.

[PontBlue]

FOCs have to pay franchise fees whereas the state, when it takes over a franchise, does not. That's how the taxpayer recoups there money.

Anyway, I digress from the point I was making. Whether you believe in state or privately run is moot, what we really need is massive infrastructure investment in public works, public infrastructure, integrated bus, rail, light rail. These works creates jobs, wealth and improves productivity. Whatever happened to Labour being the party of investment - investment is what this country is crying out for.

We've seen how the Tories dithered over HS2, and whilst I'm not discussing the merits of HS2 or otherwise, its clear the Tories don't have a plan to invest in the UKs future.

There are so many opportunities to invest to grow and future proof the UK but the Tories wasted years of historically low interest rates to generate funds.

There should be ambitious programmes to make our homes more energy efficient, tidal energy should have been explored plus many others but they don't benefit individuals and companies who bribe Tories to stick with their old business models.

[pipster]

There are so many opportunities to invest to grow and future proof the UK but the Tories wasted years of historically low interest rates to generate funds.

There should be ambitious programmes to make our homes more energy efficient, tidal energy should have been explored plus many others but they don't benefit individuals and companies who bribe Tories to stick with their old business models.

Maybe you should have a chat with a Soil company based in Lamby way - that was being investigated for toxic sludge dumping.
Maybe we should nationalise everything?

[goats]

There are so many opportunities to invest to grow and future proof the UK but the Tories wasted years of historically low interest rates to generate funds.

There should be ambitious programmes to make our homes more energy efficient, tidal energy should have been explored plus many others but they don't benefit individuals and companies who bribe Tories to stick with their old business models.

Surely we should be using the tides to generate power, as it’s such an issue these days. 2nd biggest tidal range in the world between Bristol and Cardiff, one day there will be a barrage to generate power. Then there’s wind, plenty of that too.

[Eric Cartman]

Inefficiency, no motivation to innovate, probable political interference, zero accountability, zero competition, if you want that good luck to you.

All of those points apply to the current model.

At this point it is probably worth asking, do you think any functions of central/local government should remain 'nationalised' or would they all operate better if privatised?

[pipster]

All of those points apply to the current model.

At this point it is probably worth asking, do you think any functions of central/local government should remain 'nationalised' or would they all operate better if privatised?

Great point - If they are one and the same then - I would prefer the option that gives the end client the option to get rid of the bad supplier. That way you are not stuck with a rubbish supplier. The nationalised British rail model does not allow for that option - which is why it is flawed.

for the avoidance of doubt - I cant stand some of the train operators currently running some services. But at least they can be got rid of. British Rail militant and unionised would be a disaster - even worse than what we have now.

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

That's all fine and dandy Sludgey but... picture the scene - Sir Keir and Angie have just completed the total re nationalisation - we are back to British Rail. Responsible for all trains, track, repairs, drivers, conductors etc - fantastic. Until British Rail union members decide to go on strike for more (insert ludicrous demand here).

All of a sudden with great ease - they could bring down the entire rail network. Every person now employed by the Govt. East coast service is cr@p - we'll get companies to re tender and dont renew the current supplier - under British Rail - you are stuck with them.

Inefficiency, no motivation to innovate, probable political interference, zero accountability, zero competition, if you want that good luck to you. Much better off using the Japan Rail model - rather than the usual socialist guff policy that never worked and will fail again. But hey ho - I'm sure you have thought this through - and it will all be fine - just like it was in the 70's

We are basically stuck with the private train operators functioning as a sort of its this or you can get the bus ......with the train companies coining it in

Plus loads of people making money out of shares and dividends

The train service nationwide can be shut down as it is

I would nationalise everything if it was financially viable

[Eric Cartman]

We are basically stuck with the private train operators functioning as a sort of its this or you can get the bus ......with the train companies coining it in

Plus loads of people making money out of shares and dividends

The train service nationwide can be shut down as it is

I would nationalise everything if it was financially viable

Tbh your second paragraph is a bit off the mark. A significant amount of the operators are directly owned by foreign governments. The irony isn't lost that Pipster thinks it's somehow more efficient for the French or German government to run rail services in the UK, as opposed to the UK government and that somehow that makes railways adds accountability.

[pipster]

Tbh your second paragraph is a bit off the mark. A significant amount of the operators are directly owned by foreign governments. The irony isn't lost that Pipster thinks it's somehow more efficient for the French or German government to run rail services in the UK, as opposed to the UK government and that somehow that makes railways adds accountability.

I thought I said should be modelled on the Japanese way they have done it. Where they have both a standard JapanRail option or you can ride the bullet train run my a company for extra money - that gets you there quicker. The choice is with the customer.

What I certainly dont want is a German state owner train company running UK trains and making profits that go to another country and we definitely dont want British Rail one out all out trades unions trying to hold the country to ransom - like they did in the 70's and like they have tried to do for the last couple of years here - and failed - as working from home has beaten them.