Amsterdam Violence

[JamesWales]

To put things into perspective why are we arguing the toss over some routine football violence where the usual ultras got into a scrap, and yet not tear out our mutual hearts at the horrific genocide going on in Gaza and also not condemn the Western politicians who have nearly as much blood on their evil hands as the Israeli butchers?

Of course, although it's not like the terrible war isn't talked about. There always has to be room for a diversity of news and theres more than one global conflict too of course. No question it pales into insignificance compared to what other people go through

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Mute? I didn't post for a day cos I had a busy weekend and frankly this thread is weird.

I genuinely have no idea what you are rambling on about. Even less so than when you were calling Kemi Badenoch a gap-toothed slapper last week in another one of your fine observations.

All I'm saying is that it seems pretty damned likely that there was a very unpleasant event in Amsterdam last week which many people far more informed than you have labeled antisemitic. I've also very much acknowledged that no doubt some Maccabi fans behaved appallingly and in at least one case violently. Weve all seen appalling football fan behavior before but I don't recollect such event being peppered with discussions about "jew hunts"

https://www.wsj.com/world/europe/cal...erdam-e3311e21

To agree with the mayor of Amsterdam and the PM of Netherlands about an event that happened in their city and country really shouldn't be a controversial opinion. Quite why it is to you, is beyond me. I'm not aware of you being a fan of Ajax or Maccabi Tel Aviv but here we are discussing the event in the thread that you started purely to cast doubt on the idea that some people were attacked for their religion.

You are the person who has brought the idea of crystal night " jew hunts " into this

And the reason you have done this is to label those of us with opposing views as in tge wrong

It's not washing with me

The thread was about attacks on Arabic communities in Amsterdam carried out BEFORE the violence involving tel aviv fans

It's quite simple to pay attention to that instead of trying to write war and peace etc

Just focus , leave the hysterical over the top stuff for Hollywood

[JamesWales]

You are the person who has brought the idea of crystal night " jew hunts " into this

And the reason you have done this is to label those of us with opposing views as in tge wrong

It's not washing with me

The thread was about attacks on Arabic communities in Amsterdam carried out BEFORE the violence involving tel aviv fans

It's quite simple to pay attention to that instead of trying to write war and peace etc

Just focus , leave the hysterical over the top stuff for Hollywood

I've not written war and peace. I just agree with the mayor and prime minister and disagree with you. In this case even more than usual.

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

I've not written war and peace. I just agree with the mayor and prime minister and disagree with you. In this case even more than usual.

You are a self proclaimed mouthpiece for the right

In this case feeding a false narrative about events in Amsterdam

Stooge

[JamesWales]

You are a self proclaimed mouthpiece for the right

In this case feeding a false narrative about events in Amsterdam

Stooge

I mean that is quite literally what I am not. I'm the Sludge appointed mouthpiece for the right.

That in itself is absurd given I am merely believing the Green Left Mayor and the Independent Labour PMs account, which again, sorry to say, carry more weight than the left-wing internet super sleuth of CCMB.

See there is an updated BBC story now and it doesn't validate your position at all. All part of a global conspiracy no doubt!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c78dzr432x7o

[HiVis]

Hi Wash, I hope you are well. Thanks for your question: and of course it's a hugely difficult one to answer, as I suspect you anticipated. At the very least a short response on a football message board won't do it justice.

Of course humans have evolved to stay within tribal situations largely for reasons of security, safety and wellbeing since our earliest beginnings. The nation state being a structure that better suits the needs of a competitive society so I can understand it's development . However rabid nationalism along with religion (which often are intertwined) have led to the most destructive wars in history and continue to do so. We can never be sure some particular forthcoming war might not end our tenure on the planet.

I won't attempt to give you a pathway to a non nationalistic but united World but I believe nations coalescing and developing like minded beliefs is an important first step. For me, although not perfect I believe the EU offers an early model and opportunity for progress but of course you may well disagree.

Suffice it to say personally I have no particular national affiliation and I'm happy being a citizen of the World.

[Dorcus]

I mean that is quite literally what I am not. I'm the Sludge appointed mouthpiece for the right.

That in itself is absurd given I am merely believing the Green Left Mayor and the Independent Labour PMs account, which again, sorry to say, carry more weight than the left-wing internet super sleuth of CCMB.

See there is an updated BBC story now and it doesn't validate your position at all. All part of a global conspiracy no doubt!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c78dzr432x7o

Dick Schoof: "we are well aware of Maccabi hooligans attacking a taxi, burning a Palestinian flag and shouting anti-Arabic slogans but we consider that a different category"

Says all that needs to be said. He just as well have gone on to say "this was just high jinks by Israelis, they can do no wrong!"

[jon1959]

Dick Schoof: "we are well aware of Maccabi hooligans attacking a taxi, burning a Palestinian flag and shouting anti-Arabic slogans but we consider that a different category"

Says all that needs to be said. He just as well have gone on to say "this was just high jinks by Israelis, they can do no wrong!"

No outrage from those same politicians about the mass murder of men, women and children in Gaza, Lebanon and the West Bank - the vast majority not part of any armed resistance. Over 50 dead in the same timeframe as the Amsterdam incidents.

Very little news coverage either. That has been dominated by a largely manufactured story of 'antisemitic attacks on peaceful Maccabi fans in Amsterdam'. No doubt antisemitism played some part - but it appears to be almost all a reaction to what the Maccabi fans did.

This in a city that has held regular and large demonstrations for a year to protest the genocide in Gaza - and every time with a very prominent contingent of Jewish people taking part.

The hypocrisy and cynicism is breathtaking.

[Dorcus]

No outrage from those same politicians about the mass murder of men, women and children in Gaza, Lebanon and the West Bank - the vast majority not part of any armed resistance. Over 50 dead in the same timeframe as the Amsterdam incidents.

Very little news coverage either. That has been dominated by a largely manufactured story of 'antisemitic attacks on peaceful Maccabi fans in Amsterdam'. No doubt antisemitism played some part - but it appears to be almost all a reaction to what the Maccabi fans did.

This in a city that has held regular and large demonstrations for a year to protest the genocide in Gaza - and every time with a very prominent contingent of Jewish people taking part.

The hypocrisy and cynicism is breathtaking.

They should hang their heads in shame. Personally I'd put them in the stocks if I could.

[the other bob wilson]

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

That is what has been argued all along by the jew haters on here

I suppose that's me if JW is to be believed

Where is the evidence of all the serious attacks on innocent tel aviv supporters ?

The only one we have been provided with is actually an attack of Israeli fans on local Arabic population ......but reported as the other way round

🤣 ....if it wasn't so serious

Over to J " impartial " W

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Dick Schoof: "we are well aware of Maccabi hooligans attacking a taxi, burning a Palestinian flag and shouting anti-Arabic slogans but we consider that a different category"

Says all that needs to be said. He just as well have gone on to say "this was just high jinks by Israelis, they can do no wrong!"

What a stitch up

The only footage of serious violence shown is macabi fans kicking local Muslims.....and even then the media reported it a Muslim attacks on poor , innocent Jewish football fans

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

I mean that is quite literally what I am not. I'm the Sludge appointed mouthpiece for the right.

That in itself is absurd given I am merely believing the Green Left Mayor and the Independent Labour PMs account, which again, sorry to say, carry more weight than the left-wing internet super sleuth of CCMB.

See there is an updated BBC story now and it doesn't validate your position at all. All part of a global conspiracy no doubt!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c78dzr432x7o

You can weasel your way out of your role as defender of Israel by looking at the rest of the thread and the media lies that sucked a lot of people in

Good luck with that

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Dick Schoof: "we are well aware of Maccabi hooligans attacking a taxi, burning a Palestinian flag and shouting anti-Arabic slogans but we consider that a different category"

Says all that needs to be said. He just as well have gone on to say "this was just high jinks by Israelis, they can do no wrong!"

Incidents on both sides ......

One is a return to the darkest nights of nazi Germany

The other ......let's not go into that , brush it under the carpet

😆

Absolute stitch up

JW you apologist

[JamesWales]

Incidents on both sides ......

One is a return to the darkest nights of nazi Germany

The other ......let's not go into that , brush it under the carpet

😆

Absolute stitch up

JW you apologist

Wtf are you going on about now?

[HiVis]

Of course, although it's not like the terrible war isn't talked about. There always has to be room for a diversity of news and theres more than one global conflict too of course. No question it pales into insignificance compared to what other people go through

91 Jews were murdered during kristallnacht.

The recent football fisticuffs just doesn't compare.

What does compare to Kristallnacht is the daily systematic elimination of non belligerents in the gaza strip

[JamesWales]

91 Jews were murdered during kristallnacht.

The recent football fisticuffs just doesn't compare.

What does compare to Kristallnacht is the daily systematic elimination of non belligerents in the gaza strip

Of course.

But why are you talking about kristallnacht?

[jon1959]

Of course.

But why are you talking about kristallnacht?

You have posted BBC reports yourself in this thread - and many of them used 'the anniversary of Kristallnacht' to create an impression that Nazi-like 'Jew hating' mobs were swarming around Amsterdam. So did most of the other major western news outlets - including Sky, The Guardian and many US online papers. They also echoed the Netanyahu government lines that what happened in Amsterdam was a 'pogrom'.

Most of the mainstream media completely bought into a narrative that whitewashed the Israeli fans' actions, that misrepresented the events (including the inversion of reality highlighted in the Owen Jones YouTube piece), promoted the idea that Israelis and European Jews are eternal victims and different rules and judgements must apply to them, and deflected political and media attention (with the full connivance of politicians and the media) from the latest atrocities committed by Israel in Lebanon, Gaza and the West Bank - where the actual pogroms are taking place.

Interesting too that the US and European right and far right are falling over themselves to echo and amplify every propaganda line that comes out of Israel. We live in an era where Israel finds its key allies in Geert Wilders, Tommy Robinson and Marine Le Pen as well as Nancy Pelosi, Joe Biden and Ursula Von der Layen. In the old days it was just apartheid South Africa!

[JamesWales]

You have posted BBC reports yourself in this thread - and many of them used 'the anniversary of Kristallnacht' to create an impression that Nazi-like 'Jew hating' mobs were swarming around Amsterdam. So did most of the other major western news outlets - including Sky, The Guardian and many US online papers. They also echoed the Netanyahu government lines that what happened in Amsterdam was a 'pogrom'.

Most of the mainstream media completely bought into a narrative that whitewashed the Israeli fans' actions, that misrepresented the events (including the inversion of reality highlighted in the Owen Jones YouTube piece), promoted the idea that Israelis and European Jews are eternal victims and different rules and judgements must apply to them, and deflected political and media attention (with the full connivance of politicians and the media) from the latest atrocities committed by Israel in Lebanon, Gaza and the West Bank - where the actual pogroms are taking place.

Interesting too that the US and European right and far right are falling over themselves to echo and amplify every propaganda line that comes out of Israel. We live in an era where Israel finds its key allies in Geert Wilders, Tommy Robinson and Marine Le Pen as well as Nancy Pelosi, Joe Biden and Ursula Von der Layen. In the old days it was just apartheid South Africa!

So BBC bad and Owen Jones, who has rapidly become an online agitator is right?

Why on earth do you take Owen Jones as gospel, but the Dutch Prime Minister, Mayor of Amsterdam and Police chief not, let alone all the "mainstream media".

No one disputes bad behaviour on both sides. It doesn't justify what happened afterwards. That's the crux of it. No one disputes sparks but that doesn't justify "hit and run attacks" which the article below numbers at 14.

Why can some of you seemingly not accept that a serious event happened?

They are expecting further riots tonight btw.

This is one of the main centre-left newspapers in Netherlands btw and they are doing a live-ticker. It's quite interesting.

https://www.volkskrant.nl/krant/digitaal/vandaag

[Wales-Bales]

Any updates on the alleged presence of IDF/Mossad members being present in Amsterdam? Was it both, none, or one?

[jon1959]

So BBC bad and Owen Jones, who has rapidly become an online agitator is right?

Why on earth do you take Owen Jones as gospel, but the Dutch Prime Minister, Mayor of Amsterdam and Police chief not, let alone all the "mainstream media".

No one disputes bad behaviour on both sides. It doesn't justify what happened afterwards. That's the crux of it. No one disputes sparks but that doesn't justify "hit and run attacks" which the article below numbers at 14.

Why can some of you seemingly not accept that a serious event happened?

They are expecting further riots tonight btw.

This is one of the main centre-left newspapers in Netherlands btw and they are doing a live-ticker. It's quite interesting.

https://www.volkskrant.nl/krant/digitaal/vandaag

'Owen Jones as gospel'? What are you on about? Did you watch the piece posted by TOBW?

A clip posted on X by a local Dutch journalist showed Maccabi fans chasing and kicking local Dutch youths. Jones interviewed her. Her clip was used by European TV channels but flipped - they presented it as Dutch (or Moroccans or Arabs or Muslims or Palestinian solidarity campaigners) chasing and attacking Israeli football fans. It was a lie. Only one TV channel (a German one) subsequently apologised to the Dutch journalist for using her clip to deliberately lie to their viewers.

No one is denying that a serious event happened. Very few are denying that there could have been an anti semitic element to some of the later violence. But the way the whole series of events was framed and manipulated by TV, press and politicians, and used for cynical propaganda purposes is where there seems to be a difference between you and most on this thread.

[jon1959]

Fuller accounts of what happened are now starting to appear on the back of a report from the city mayor:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...nce-mayor-says

[the other bob wilson]

So BBC bad and Owen Jones, who has rapidly become an online agitator is right?

Why on earth do you take Owen Jones as gospel, but the Dutch Prime Minister, Mayor of Amsterdam and Police chief not, let alone all the "mainstream media".

No one disputes bad behaviour on both sides. It doesn't justify what happened afterwards. That's the crux of it. No one disputes sparks but that doesn't justify "hit and run attacks" which the article below numbers at 14.

Why can some of you seemingly not accept that a serious event happened?

They are expecting further riots tonight btw.

This is one of the main centre-left newspapers in Netherlands btw and they are doing a live-ticker. It's quite interesting.

https://www.volkskrant.nl/krant/digitaal/vandaag

Your bias is showing again James, the relevant thing with the video I posted is not who asked the questions, but who answered them - the person that shot the film has maintained all along that the main stream media are wrong in their interpretation of events. Also, why did Sky completely change the emphasis of their reporting?

You’ll probably dismiss on the grounds of who is presenting this video, but this features someone else actually filming supporters who says they’re Maccabi fans.

[JamesWales]

'Owen Jones as gospel'? What are you on about? Did you watch the piece posted by TOBW?

A clip posted on X by a local Dutch journalist showed Maccabi fans chasing and kicking local Dutch youths. Jones interviewed her. Her clip was used by European TV channels but flipped - they presented it as Dutch (or Moroccans or Arabs or Muslims or Palestinian solidarity campaigners) chasing and attacking Israeli football fans. It was a lie. Only one TV channel (a German one) subsequently apologised to the Dutch journalist for using her clip to deliberately lie to their viewers.

No one is denying that a serious event happened. Very few are denying that there could have been an anti semitic element to some of the later violence. But the way the whole series of events was framed and manipulated by TV, press and politicians, and used for cynical propaganda purposes is where there seems to be a difference between you and most on this thread.

Why is the mayor of Amsterdam and the Dutch PM lying then?

[JamesWales]

Your bias is showing again James, the relevant thing with the video I posted is not who asked the questions, but who answered them - the person that shot the film has maintained all along that the main stream media are wrong in their interpretation of events. Also, why did Sky completely change the emphasis of their reporting?

You’ll probably dismiss on the grounds of who is presenting this video, but this features someone else actually filming supporters who says they’re Maccabi fans.

My bias? I am merely stating that it seems very likely that serious antisemitic attacks occured. And that seems to be verified.

Do you not think that is the case? If so why are the politicians lying?