Amsterdam Violence

[the other bob wilson]

Nope!

I think you're telling porkies now, but, if you aren't, are you telling me that you've spent fifty eight posts now in this thread agreeing with the people you're arguing with?

[JamesWales]

I think you're telling porkies now, but, if you aren't, are you telling me that you've spent fifty eight posts now in this thread agreeing with the people you're arguing with?

It's you that's gone to the corners of the internet to find videos that refer to small parts of the events Bob. Not me. I've stuck to reports the authorities have produced that take account of everything..unlike Double Down news and Owen Jones!

The start of this thread was essentially in the tone of "they got their coppupance". I entirely disagree with that. I do entirely agree there was trouble on both sides but that what followed wasn't justified. It's no more complex than that.

[the other bob wilson]

It's you that's gone to the corners of the internet to find videos that refer to small parts of the events Bob. Not me. I've stuck to reports the authorities have produced that take account of everything..unlike Double Down news and Owen Jones!

The start of this thread was essentially in the tone of "they got their coppupance". I entirely disagree with that. I do entirely agree there was trouble on both sides but that what followed wasn't justified. It's no more complex than that.

In this instance, you have to go to the corners of the internet as you call it to correct the misrepresentation in the places you would normally tend to look to get a balanced view of things.

You’re now saying you have not denied that the trouble started with the Tel Aviv fans and that the mainstream media were wrong in the way they reported it - are you sure?

[jon1959]

It's you that's gone to the corners of the internet to find videos that refer to small parts of the events Bob. Not me. I've stuck to reports the authorities have produced that take account of everything..unlike Double Down news and Owen Jones!

The start of this thread was essentially in the tone of "they got their coppupance". I entirely disagree with that. I do entirely agree there was trouble on both sides but that what followed wasn't justified. It's no more complex than that.

Owen Jones and Novarra Media both explicitly agreed that there were examples of anti semitic words and actions in the later stages of the violence. But with Double Down News and other similar reports they have taken the media reporting of the whole event, the statements of European and American politicians, and the deliberate distortion of video footage to show that a dishonest account has been presented to the public. An account that serves a particular, disgraceful political agenda. One that has not been corrected.

You have chosen to ignore that. You accept that some Tel aviv fans misbehaved. You seem to accept (though find it hard to say) that the video clips, used to illustrate most of the initial media and political coverage, was an inversion of reality. But you think that is all marginal and insignificant. You think the incidents of some anti semitic social media posts and anti semitic language used in a few of the recorded confrontations is the story. You seem to think there was a pogrom in Amsterdam? You have decided to nail your colours to the mast of Joe Biden, Geert Wilders and his Prime Minister place man and Benjamin Netanyahu. It is no more complex than that.

[JamesWales]

In this instance, you have to go to the corners of the internet as you call it to correct the misrepresentation in the places you would normally tend to look to get a balanced view of things.

You’re now saying you have not denied that the trouble started with the Tel Aviv fans and that the mainstream media were wrong in the way they reported it - are you sure?

The trouble started with Maccabi fans. The antisemitism that followed (widely confirmed by multiple sources) was not acceptable and is inexcusable. There seems to have been at least one video that was misrepresented out of hundreds. It's no more complicated than that Bob and it never has been. For believing that antisemitic violence took place and arguing that it cannot be justified, I've been called a Zionist, drama queen, defender of Israel, idiot, sanctimonious ponce, condemning people to death, having a view that would have made the Holocaust worse, comparing it to kristallnacht, indifferent to "wanton Arab slaughter", having " extreme beliefs", far-right, fascist, biased, supporting hatred of Muslims, telling fairy stories,..."

All for what? For believing the reports from the authorities responsible for the city in which it happened.

Its classic conspiracy theory stuff. And there's a place for that but placing more emphasis on a video that shows one incident over summaries from authorties that take a holistic view of the whole event - that's conspiracy theory stuff. Congratulations.

[JamesWales]

Owen Jones and Novarra Media both explicitly agreed that there were examples of anti semitic words and actions in the later stages of the violence. But with Double Down News and other similar reports they have taken the media reporting of the whole event, the statements of European and American politicians, and the deliberate distortion of video footage to show that a dishonest account has been presented to the public. An account that serves a particular, disgraceful political agenda. One that has not been corrected.

You have chosen to ignore that. You accept that some Tel aviv fans misbehaved. You seem to accept (though find it hard to say) that the video clips, used to illustrate most of the initial media and political coverage, was an inversion of reality. But you think that is all marginal and insignificant. You think the incidents of some anti semitic social media posts and anti semitic language used in a few of the recorded confrontations is the story. You seem to think there was a pogrom in Amsterdam? You have decided to nail your colours to the mast of Joe Biden, Geert Wilders and his Prime Minister place man and Benjamin Netanyahu. It is no more complex than that.

If you are accepting that antisemitic attacks happened and they are entirely unacceptable and cannot be excused then we disagree on nothing Jon.

[jon1959]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...erdam-violence

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

It's you that's gone to the corners of the internet to find videos that refer to small parts of the events Bob. Not me. I've stuck to reports the authorities have produced that take account of everything..unlike Double Down news and Owen Jones!

The start of this thread was essentially in the tone of "they got their coppupance". I entirely disagree with that. I do entirely agree there was trouble on both sides but that what followed wasn't justified. It's no more complex than that.

Ash Sanker is a top quality commentator

If you were in a room with her arguing over the serious matter of press interweaving with right and far right politics ......very dangerous in the case of Israel .....she would hang you out to dry

She's far more intelligent than me so I am just going to leave you looking like an idiot

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Owen Jones and Novarra Media both explicitly agreed that there were examples of anti semitic words and actions in the later stages of the violence. But with Double Down News and other similar reports they have taken the media reporting of the whole event, the statements of European and American politicians, and the deliberate distortion of video footage to show that a dishonest account has been presented to the public. An account that serves a particular, disgraceful political agenda. One that has not been corrected.

You have chosen to ignore that. You accept that some Tel aviv fans misbehaved. You seem to accept (though find it hard to say) that the video clips, used to illustrate most of the initial media and political coverage, was an inversion of reality. But you think that is all marginal and insignificant. You think the incidents of some anti semitic social media posts and anti semitic language used in a few of the recorded confrontations is the story. You seem to think there was a pogrom in Amsterdam? You have decided to nail your colours to the mast of Joe Biden, Geert Wilders and his Prime Minister place man and Benjamin Netanyahu. It is no more complex than that.

Minor clashes ....Holocaust revival

Take your pick

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

The trouble started with Maccabi fans. The antisemitism that followed (widely confirmed by multiple sources) was not acceptable and is inexcusable. There seems to have been at least one video that was misrepresented out of hundreds. It's no more complicated than that Bob and it never has been. For believing that antisemitic violence took place and arguing that it cannot be justified, I've been called a Zionist, drama queen, defender of Israel, idiot, sanctimonious ponce, condemning people to death, having a view that would have made the Holocaust worse, comparing it to kristallnacht, indifferent to "wanton Arab slaughter", having " extreme beliefs", far-right, fascist, biased, supporting hatred of Muslims, telling fairy stories,..."

All for what? For believing the reports from the authorities responsible for the city in which it happened.

Its classic conspiracy theory stuff. And there's a place for that but placing more emphasis on a video that shows one incident over summaries from authorties that take a holistic view of the whole event - that's conspiracy theory stuff. Congratulations.

You really are an idiot

If you think the observations of ash sanker are crass , throwaway remarks of a conspiracy theory nature then that says so much about you

I am dumbfounded at you , more so than usual

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...erdam-violence

Well , well , well moderate Jewish commentators saying this was stoked up by the right and the stupidity or compliance of the politicians and media getting swept along with it

Wilders , Netanyahu......its a pogram ....before you know it everyone is weighing in .....including JW on here

These commentators, including Jewish ones based in Amsterdam, who have criticised the ridiculous and dangerous coverage and statements .....must be wrong and conspiracy nutters ......and JW ? .....well he's obviously been right ( wing) all along

[Dorcus]

Basically if someone doesn't want to believe the truth because it clashes with their cherished views then the truth will be trashed. It's as simple as that.

[Dorcus]

If you are accepting that antisemitic attacks happened and they are entirely unacceptable and cannot be excused then we disagree on nothing Jon.

I certainly agree that anti-Jewish attacks on entirely innocent people are to be condemned and, although some of the Israelis certainly provoked a reaction, in an ideal world, people could have shown more restraint.

However, I wonder if you would agree that the wanton slaughter of innocent children and blatant genocide are not useful tactics for Israel to adopt to foster more congenial attitudes towards its people?

[Dorcus]

Well , well , well moderate Jewish commentators saying this was stoked up by the right and the stupidity or compliance of the politicians and media getting swept along with it

Wilders , Netanyahu......its a pogram ....before you know it everyone is weighing in .....including JW on here

These commentators, including Jewish ones based in Amsterdam, who have criticised the ridiculous and dangerous coverage and statements .....must be wrong and conspiracy nutters ......and JW ? .....well he's obviously been right ( wing) all along

I found it sickening last night in Paris that for a routine football event the French president made a point of attending the game in an official capacity. Also the Star of David was allowed to be displayed in the stadium but not the Palestinian flag. That's gross hypocrisy. Also when the Israeli anthem was being played it was loudly booed but, what did the French authorities do; they turned the sound of the anthem up louder. Classic suppression of protest. That's totally undemocratic.

[jon1959]

If you are accepting that antisemitic attacks happened and they are entirely unacceptable and cannot be excused then we disagree on nothing Jon.

This thread proves we disagree on most things - especially what happened and why it was dishonestly presented as it was. Not just the video clips from Annet de Graaf and others, but the whole sequence of events. We may agree on some details - but on the big picture we are on different planets. You have nailed your colours to a rotten mast!

[JamesWales]

Meanwhile back on planet earth, the Dutch police are looking for upto 30 people for the violence that some of you seem hellbent on trying to imply didn't happen. Make sure you send the video in chaps.

https://www.volkskrant.nl/binnenland...aviv~bae84eed/

"Van Weel 'very happy' that suspect turned himself in, warns others
One of the five people who were blurred out on Opsporing Verzocht on Tuesday has turned himself in to the police. Minister of Justice David van Weel (VVD) says he is 'very happy' about this. He urges the other four suspects to do the same. The five are suspected of having committed serious violence in the aftermath of the Ajax - Maccabi Tel Aviv match.

The other four suspects 'still have a few hours, otherwise they will probably be shown unblurred tonight', Van Weel said before the cabinet meeting today. 'I think it is better for the people that they are not shown in their full glory on national television.' It was previously announced that the unblurred messages will be shown on Friday evening at half past eight.

In addition to these five suspects, the Public Prosecution Service has 'almost thirty people in its sights' who are said to have been involved in the violence. In addition, three people are now in custody, Van Weel reports. 'The goal is to track them all down."

[JamesWales]

I certainly agree that anti-Jewish attacks on entirely innocent people are to be condemned and, although some of the Israelis certainly provoked a reaction, in an ideal world, people could have shown more restraint.

However, I wonder if you would agree that the wanton slaughter of innocent children and blatant genocide are not useful tactics for Israel to adopt to foster more congenial attitudes towards its people?

We are absolutely I agreement on the first paragraph!

The second paragraph is an entirely different and much larger argument. It goes without saying that wars radicalise people. It doesn't make violence against random people acceptable.

There is already a very comprehensive thread on the war more generally. Not sure there is the need for another one?

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

I found it sickening last night in Paris that for a routine football event the French president made a point of attending the game in an official capacity. Also the Star of David was allowed to be displayed in the stadium but not the Palestinian flag. That's gross hypocrisy. Also when the Israeli anthem was being played it was loudly booed but, what did the French authorities do; they turned the sound of the anthem up louder. Classic suppression of protest. That's totally undemocratic.

Gutter level stuff

[Dorcus]

We are absolutely I agreement on the first paragraph!

The second paragraph is an entirely different and much larger argument. It goes without saying that wars radicalise people. It doesn't make violence against random people acceptable.

There is already a very comprehensive thread on the war more generally. Not sure there is the need for another one?

I just wanted your opinion in summary

[Dorcus]

Meanwhile back on planet earth, the Dutch police are looking for upto 30 people for the violence that some of you seem hellbent on trying to imply didn't happen. Make sure you send the video in chaps.

https://www.volkskrant.nl/binnenland...aviv~bae84eed/

"Van Weel 'very happy' that suspect turned himself in, warns others
One of the five people who were blurred out on Opsporing Verzocht on Tuesday has turned himself in to the police. Minister of Justice David van Weel (VVD) says he is 'very happy' about this. He urges the other four suspects to do the same. The five are suspected of having committed serious violence in the aftermath of the Ajax - Maccabi Tel Aviv match.

The other four suspects 'still have a few hours, otherwise they will probably be shown unblurred tonight', Van Weel said before the cabinet meeting today. 'I think it is better for the people that they are not shown in their full glory on national television.' It was previously announced that the unblurred messages will be shown on Friday evening at half past eight.

In addition to these five suspects, the Public Prosecution Service has 'almost thirty people in its sights' who are said to have been involved in the violence. In addition, three people are now in custody, Van Weel reports. 'The goal is to track them all down."

How many of those "almost 30 people" are Israelis I wonder

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

We are absolutely I agreement on the first paragraph!

The second paragraph is an entirely different and much larger argument. It goes without saying that wars radicalise people. It doesn't make violence against random people acceptable.

There is already a very comprehensive thread on the war more generally. Not sure there is the need for another one?

Well this one has definitely flushed you out so I suppose having to wade through all your rubbish has made it worth it

A chance was here for you to put your hands up but you simply can't do it and off you go again on another yeah but no jog

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Meanwhile back on planet earth, the Dutch police are looking for upto 30 people for the violence that some of you seem hellbent on trying to imply didn't happen. Make sure you send the video in chaps.

https://www.volkskrant.nl/binnenland...aviv~bae84eed/

"Van Weel 'very happy' that suspect turned himself in, warns others
One of the five people who were blurred out on Opsporing Verzocht on Tuesday has turned himself in to the police. Minister of Justice David van Weel (VVD) says he is 'very happy' about this. He urges the other four suspects to do the same. The five are suspected of having committed serious violence in the aftermath of the Ajax - Maccabi Tel Aviv match.

The other four suspects 'still have a few hours, otherwise they will probably be shown unblurred tonight', Van Weel said before the cabinet meeting today. 'I think it is better for the people that they are not shown in their full glory on national television.' It was previously announced that the unblurred messages will be shown on Friday evening at half past eight.

In addition to these five suspects, the Public Prosecution Service has 'almost thirty people in its sights' who are said to have been involved in the violence. In addition, three people are now in custody, Van Weel reports. 'The goal is to track them all down."

You have forgotten ! ......to include 10 tel aviv fans arrested

Planet Earth

[Dorcus]

Well this one has definitely flushed you out so I suppose having to wade through all your rubbish has made it worth it

A chance was here for you to put your hands up but you simply can't do it and off you go again on another yeah but no jog

I noticed he squirmed at my second paragraph. I just wonder what compassionate human being could disagree with it.

[JamesWales]

I just wanted your opinion in summary

I think Israel's tactics will make the conflict go on for longer and clearly builds resentment. I also think that Hamas are repugnant and hide amongst their own people whom they have zero regard whatsoever for. I also think they could have saved thousands of lives by releasing hostages or of course not committing the atrocity in the first place. It's a near impossible situation, although I think Israel has overstepped the mark. Who is ultimately responsible for the slaughter of thousands of innocent people? I would say Hamas indirectly and Israel directly.

But it is very hard to find a solution isn't it. What would you suggest that both sides and regional partners and neighbouring countries are happy with?

[JamesWales]

Well this one has definitely flushed you out so I suppose having to wade through all your rubbish has made it worth it

A chance was here for you to put your hands up but you simply can't do it and off you go again on another yeah but no jog

Hands up to what? The police arrested 60 people. They are actively seeking 30.

You should turn up to the Amsterdam police station with your videos and see what they say.