Reply With QuoteThat......that's surely not what you meant is it?Originally Posted by BlueWales
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TOBW, I've been trying to form an opinion on Slade for a while now and after reading this thread it looks like I'll be pinching yours and passing it off as my own, so with that in mind, would you say that overall RS would be doing a good job if he just introduced more of our youth to first team football?
That......that's surely not what you meant is it?
There you go again ....willing the club to fail to try to prove a point. I feel sorry for you mate ..... Bet you have to take a Rennie every time we win a game don't you!!
No one is listening to your drivel anymore
Imagine bragging about how much football you watch and that you are more in touch with it that someone else. One of the most cringeworthy posts I've read on here fair play.
To talk about sacking the manager at this time is very poor form.Do we want to shoot ourselves in the foot. Support the team.
Don't think anyone is talking about sacking him , just replacing him at end of the season when contract runs out
That amounts to the same thing surely
No because his contract is up at the end of the season so if we don't offer him a new deal he'll be gone and not sacked , I do wonder i the club have their eye on someone else anyway as there is still no indication they are going to renew and as it stands Slade has 7 games left with us
This is going to be a long one, but I hope you bear with me.
From early in the season I've thought that we would finish somewhere between seventh and tenth - if that is where we end up, then, unlike quite a few others in our support it seems, I would not see it as underachieving with the squad we have.
The thing is though, at various times this season I've heard or read Ken Choo, Mehmet Dalman and Russell Slade say the aim for this season is to reach the Play Offs - I've also read articles where a couple of players (Pilkington and Peltier?) have said that we should be able to get into the top six with the squad we have.
So, for me, the implication from all of that is that the feeling within the club is that not finishing in the top six will be judged to be a failure and, under such circumstances, I think Russell Slade's job may well be in danger - although the impression is being given in public that there is nothing significant behind the fact that our manager's contract situation hasn't been addressed yet, it does make you wonder whether us finishing sixth or seventh will bring about two completely different scenarios for our manager.
If you look at things from a first team perspective only, then I would say that, barring a truly awful finish to the season, Russell Slade would be very unfortunate to be dismissed on the back of a failure to reach the Play Offs. Yes, we were deadly dull to watch last season and things weren't too much better at times in the early weeks this time around either - I'd say we are a side now which will knock the ball long at times and will also be pretty reliant on our set pieces for our goal threat. However, our approach is mainly to play a passing game, this has meant that we are a much more watchable team than we were and we have also seen an improvement in results (which weren't that bad anyway) since one or two players who were of little use when the opposition had the ball have left the club - we are a much better team when we don't have the ball than we were.
There have been times when I have been very critical of Russell Slade generally and I still have a whinge about a few things from time to time. For example, I'm still not convinced by him in the transfer market and I don't like it that we bring both Gunnarsson and Dikgacoi on, while taking Pilkington off and pushing Immers forward (which, for me greatly reduces his effectiveness because it nullifies many of his best qualities and also tends to leave him very isolated) in the closing stages when defending a lead, but all Russell Slade would need to say to that is look at our recent results when I do that and, basically, that stuffs my objections at the moment!
Therefore, I think Russell Slade has been a good first team manager overall for us. However, I would argue that there is more to being a good manager than getting the first team right and, on the evidence so far, I think there are glaring weaknesses in his approach in another important area that will eventually have a negative effect on the first team.
I notice that no one has had a go at answering the two questions I asked earlier today about what those who are defending our manager when it comes to young players think a youth system is for and under what circumstances would they select an 18 year old for his first team debut - for me, these are very important questions which I believe have pretty depressing answers when our manager's approach to young players is considered.
For the best part of two seasons now, we have gone from being a club whose approach was to splash the cash heavily when there was a vacancy within the squad to one that is trying to cut costs dramatically. Now it seems to me that it's at times like this that a club's Academy should come into it's own as their squad is topped up with one or two youngsters who can be gradually introduced into matchday 18 and yet nothing remotely like that has happened at Cardiff under Russell Slade.
As money becomes more of an issue at the club with the FFP regulations biting, you would have thought involving the odd youngster from time to time would be to the club's advantage if they needed the cash - this is what happened before with the likes of Ramsey, Gunter and Jerome and we were able to sell them for fees which enabled the team to be kept competitive.
However, there is no way that could happen now because it seems to me that the value of all of the youngsters with first team experience bar Joe Ralls (who, with all of his first team experience at Cardiff and Yeovil hardly qualifies as a youngster these days - that's where we are now, Ralls and players like Joe Mason are classed as youngsters!) and, possibly, Deji Oshilaja, has not appreciated under this manager., in fact in many cases it's declined.
It's not that long ago that we were, apparently, turning down a £2 million bid from Spurs for Declan John and there were reports of Leicester also being interested in the player - how much do you think we'd get for him now after eighteen months of Russell Slade's management?
If we continue along the same lines as we have done for the past eighteen months, then it seems inevitable to me that two things will happen;-
1. If we do have any very good quality players that come through the youth system, then we'll never get their potential value in the event of us needing to sell them because they are not going to have the first team experience at Championship level that they should have.
2. Cardiff will soon acquire a reputation as a club to avoid if you are a talented young local player because of the log jam which stops players in their late teens making the jump into the first team. You could hardly blame any talented young player and his family for thinking that loans to lower league clubs with the chance of possible first team football when they are in their early to mid twenties is the way they want to go (would Aaron Ramsey, Joe Ledley, Chris Gunter and others have opted to stay at Cardiff in their mid teens if the route into the first team was as tortuous as it is now?).
So, to finally (!!!!) answer your question, yes, I would rate Russell Slade as a good Cardiff manager if he was to start blooding a few youngsters, but I just don't see that happening any time soon.
Bravo Bob, excellent post.
Well that answers thatThis is going to be a long one, but I hope you bear with me
From early in the season I've thought that we would finish somewhere between seventh and tenth - if that is where we end up, then, unlike quite a few others in our support it seems, I would not see it as underachieving with the squad we have.
The thing is though, at various times this season I've heard or read Ken Choo, Mehmet Dalman and Russell Slade say the aim for this season is to reach the Play Offs - I've also read articles where a couple of players (Pilkington and Peltier?) have said that we should be able to get into the top six with the squad we have.
So, for me, the implication from all of that is that the feeling within the club is that not finishing in the top six will be judged to be a failure and, under such circumstances, I think Russell Slade's job may well be in danger - although the impression is being given in public that there is nothing significant behind the fact that our manager's contract situation hasn't been addressed yet, it does make you wonder whether us finishing sixth or seventh will bring about two completely different scenarios for our manager.
If you look at things from a first team perspective only, then I would say that, barring a truly awful finish to the season, Russell Slade would be very unfortunate to be dismissed on the back of a failure to reach the Play Offs. Yes, we were deadly dull to watch last season and things weren't too much better at times in the early weeks this time around either - I'd say we are a side now which will knock the ball long at times and will also be pretty reliant on our set pieces for our goal threat. However, our approach is mainly to play a passing game, this has meant that we are a much more watchable team than we were and we have also seen an improvement in results (which weren't that bad anyway) since one or two players who were of little use when the opposition had the ball have left the club - we are a much better team when we don't have the ball than we were.
There have been times when I have been very critical of Russell Slade generally and I still have a whinge about a few things from time to time. For example, I'm still not convinced by him in the transfer market and I don't like it that we bring both Gunnarsson and Dikgacoi on, while taking Pilkington off and pushing Immers forward (which, for me greatly reduces his effectiveness because it nullifies many of his best qualities and also tends to leave him very isolated) in the closing stages when defending a lead, but all Russell Slade would need to say to that is look at our recent results when I do that and, basically, that stuffs my objections at the moment!
Therefore, I think Russell Slade has been a good first team manager overall for us. However, I would argue that there is more to being a good manager than getting the first team right and, on the evidence so far, I think there are glaring weaknesses in his approach in another important area that will eventually have a negative effect on the first team.
I notice that no one has had a go at answering the two questions I asked earlier today about what those who are defending our manager when it comes to young players think a youth system is for and under what circumstances would they select an 18 year old for his first team debut - for me, these are very important questions which I believe have pretty depressing answers when our manager's approach to young players is considered.
For the best part of two seasons now, we have gone from being a club whose approach was to splash the cash heavily when there was a vacancy within the squad to one that is trying to cut costs dramatically. Now it seems to me that it's at times like this that a club's Academy should come into it's own as their squad is topped up with one or two youngsters who can be gradually introduced into matchday 18 and yet nothing remotely like that has happened at Cardiff under Russell Slade.
As money becomes more of an issue at the club with the FFP regulations biting, you would have thought involving the odd youngster from time to time would be to the club's advantage if they needed the cash - this is what happened before with the likes of Ramsey, Gunter and Jerome and we were able to sell them for fees which enabled the team to be kept competitive.
However, there is no way that could happen now because it seems to me that the value of all of the youngsters with first team experience bar Joe Ralls (who, with all of his first team experience at Cardiff and Yeovil hardly qualifies as a youngster these days - that's where we are now, Ralls and players like Joe Mason are classed as youngsters!) and, possibly, Deji Oshilaja, has not appreciated under this manager., in fact in many cases it's declined.
It's not that long ago that we were, apparently, turning down a £2 million bid from Spurs for Declan John and there were reports of Leicester also being interested in the player - how much do you think we'd get for him now after eighteen months of Russell Slade's management?
If we continue along the same lines as we have done for the past eighteen months, then it seems inevitable to me that two things will happen;-
1. If we do have any very good quality players that come through the youth system, then we'll never get their potential value in the event of us needing to sell them because they are not going to have the first team experience at Championship level that they should have.
2. Cardiff will soon acquire a reputation as a club to avoid if you are a talented young local player because of the log jam which stops players in their late teens making the jump into the first team. You could hardly blame any talented young player and his family for thinking that loans to lower league clubs with the chance of possible first team football when they are in their early to mid twenties is the way they want to go (would Aaron Ramsey, Joe Ledley, Chris Gunter and others have opted to stay at Cardiff in their mid teens if the route into the first team was as tortuous as it is now?).
So, to finally (!!!!) answer your question, yes, I would rate Russell Slade as a good Cardiff manager if he was to start blooding a few youngsters, but I just don't see that happening any time soon.
I watch our U21s and to be honest there is not a great deal of talent there that would be able to play in the championship.Even Tommy Sullivan is not automatic choice at Newport.I like the idea of bringing in young players but the game is about results.How can Slade be expected to bring in kids who are not up to it.The one who could have fitted in is Declan John but after that I struggle to think of anyone worth a place in the current team.We should be looking at the development set up and try to see if we can find a few gems at the moment its just not working.
Bellerin is Arsenal's best fullback but I highly doubt he showed much more than great pace in their youth team and "how can Wenger be expected to bring through youth when French international Debuchy and the pressure to win games is there?".
Regarding my criticism of Slade in the transfer market, I reckon Slade may have found better players overseas than most of his predecessors. I'd take Manga (not at 5 million mind), Immers and Saadi are probably better finds than Ole's, Malky's or DJ's lots.
Manga was signed by Ole
Bellarin got into the Arsenal first of all because of email, he was also known to be a very good prospect hence why Arsenal signed him.
Hector Bellerin was regarded as a future star at Barcelona, made his league debut due to injuries and spent time on loan at Watford before become a first-teamer, he also played for Spain at every youth level
What a poor example. Still, at what point do you give him a chance? Slade would have no doubt stuck with Debuchy, signed a cover full-back and Bellerin would still be waiting.
You must have Alzheimer's if you can't remember 5 years ago and a certain mr. Bothroyd
I'm not so sure, I'll concede that Slade has done better than I thought he would, but I'm not convinced. When Southampton sacked Nigel Adkins I was outraged, but it was the right decision. And he'd built a team that won back-to-back promotions.
Whatever our opinions, if we get into the top 6 or just miss by a hair, Tan will keep Slade.
As it stands, if we could keep the momentum and style we seem to have adopted so very lately, then personally I would be happy to see Slade and his current staff/advisors stay - and give it another go.
Only a few months ago I still thought Slade was a tread-water choice by Tan , and had been put in place merely to keep us safe for little or no money, while tan decided what to do with the Club.
Something changed rapidly, and now things don't look like that at all.
Performance wise, is either of those two (almost polar) scenario entirely down to Slade?
Hard to imagine.
Also the fact the players are happy and playing for the shirt again had made a huge difference. How do we know a new manager won't come in and upset all that again.
Blue Wales. You say that, in time, you will be proven right on Slade.
People used to say that about Jones and, yes, after 5 years of continual improvement they were finally proven right.
I'm not sure that, if Slade eventually fails in his task, 5 years down the line that you will be in any position to say to your fellow fan "See, I always said he was no good".
Slade is doing a great job, Cardiff have no right to expect more than what he has done to date.
I've watched the reserves/Under 21s home games on a very regular basis for about fifteen years now and I've seen something like 80 per cent of all Academy Under 18 home matches since 2004/05. In all of that time I've only seen two 16/17 year olds who I looked at and thought they could go straight into the first team and do a decent job - Aaron Ramsey and Adam Matthews.
I saw a lot of Chris Gunter playing for the Under 18s in 05/06. He was better than most in the side and I certainly thought he could make it into the first team, but not for another few years - a few months later he was in the senior team at 17 and coping well.
In December 2010 I talked up Joe Ralls to a mate before a Youth Cup match with Palace at Cardiff City Stadium in which Jonny Williams played - we lost 3-0, Ralls had something of a nightmare and was taken off at half time. After that performance, you would have thought there would be absolutely no chance of him making a big impression in the first team within nine months.
My experience is that you rarely see a young player in the Under 21s/Under 18s who absolutely demands selection for the first team, but our four previous managers have seen something in twenty seven Academy products to give them a chance in a League or "proper" Cup game and on about half of those occasions their judgment has been vindicated because the player has gone on to play a significant number of senior matches at various levels.
Russell Slade is, justifiably, getting a lot of praise after last night's game, but it concerns me that, in eighteen months and seventy odd games, he has not done once what Messrs Lawrence, Jones, Mackay and Solskjaer did twenty seven times between them.
You mention Declan John, this is a player who our two previous managers had enough faith in to see him feature in over half of our Premier League games as a teenager - his national team manager was also happy to select him for Wales in a World Cup qualifier (albeit a fairly meaningless one). Declan was not a first choice left back when Russell Slade arrived, but he was the go to option if one of the senior full backs was unavailable.
Since then he has been virtually ignored as another left back who certainly has attributes going forward, but is prone to inconsistency and defensive lapses (he was at it again last night) has been brought in and become an automatic selection. The only time Declan John's name has been mentioned in a media situation by our manager in recent months was when Russell Slade talked of him looking "stale" - is it any wonder that has happened as a young boy has seen his development stall completely under our current boss?
All managers that come to a new club inherit players that they don't fancy and if Slade's treatment of John was in isolation, then I would put it down to that, but, with the exception of Joe Ralls, who had played around fifty times at Championship level already, he has treated every player under the age of twenty one when he arrived in the same way!
Late last year, I went to a meeting where Russell Slade and Ken Choo answered questions from members of supporters' groups. They were asked about youth development and they both gave the distinct impression that we have a few players in the Under 16 age group that are rated very highly. I'm not going to betray confidences here and name the players concerned, but I know of two of our players in that age group that a very big Premier League club were interested in signing.
Now, if these two kids really are as good as some people think they are and are still at City when they are 17 or 18, I think that under a different manager you could expect to see them starting to feature in competitive games for us if we were still in the Football League rather than the Premiership. Would such players be turning out for us at such a young age if Russell Slade was still manager though? All of the indications from his time so far at Cardiff are that they would be out on loan playing for someone like Colchester, getting the "experience" they needed before possible selection in a City team when they were about 21 - surely, that cannot be right and I hope our manager shows a new side to his approach if these players progress as hoped.
Exactly other than Wenger and Fergusson which manager hasn't been sacked (hence failed) in the last 30 years?
Bob I agree with everything above in another very well reasoned post.
As you are aware, I share very similar views to you with regards to the importance of the Academy and young players for the future of Cardiff City.
I watch a lot of academy football from the very young kids up to the u18s and there are some excellent players at all levels. Of course the younger kids have a long way to go before they'll ever get the chance to play professional football and a myriad of things could happen in that time, nevertheless I still think it's important for parents of these children to know that Cardiff is a club that will nurture their children and look to offer opportunities for first team football.
Clubs develop a reputation for themselves and this must count as a factor when parents choose which club their child will sign for. West Ham, Southampton, Crewe etc have a very good reputation for the attitude "if a kid is good enough he's old enough".
Despite me being critical of Slade regarding this issue would definitely like to see the club be more proactive in this as a whole.
I would like us to bring something of a director of football to the club where we can develop a more joined up footballing philosophy to the club so that Slade would be less inclined to look outside and more inclined to look within for replacements.
I think this has been difficult up until now because we have never had anything even remotely resembling a footballing philosophy at the club..
This is how I would like us to go forward. Do you think this could be attainable?
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