Nigel Owen eggers ref demands football

[Loramski]

Exactly.

Also, player's taking an age to take a throw-in, players taking an age to take a goal kick. All the while knowing that 10 minutes in football is 10 minutes. The ref will add on time at the end of the half for all the time wasting.

If they bring in a sin-bin, it will be exciting for a season, then people will moan about how referees are seemingly trying to be centre of attention (which is one jibe we often get about referees).

Who is going to monitor the 15 minutes sin bin? The fourth official? They don't get that luxury in tier 7 of the pyramid. It's been introduced in tier 7 this season, the referees hate it, the players hate it, the fans hate it.

In your scenario the defending side are now down to eight men as the thrower-in and the goalie will have been sin-binned for time wasting too but it would be a difficult thing to monitor in a game where the clock doesn't stop, I agree. Any stoppages for subbing & injuries as well as time wasting would need to be added on to the sin-bin and it would get complicated but I still think it's an interesting idea.

I take the point about parking the bus but that wouldn't be as simple as it would with a red card. A yellow card for a keeper isn't a punishment most of the time so he's happy to take one but a sin-bin would make him think twice. Being left without a recognised keeper for 10 minutes would be tricky, the manager can bring one on from the bench (as he would with a red card) but when the keeper's sin-bin is over he's left with two keepers so would have to make another sub (assuming he's got any left). Even a centre-half going off wouldn't be straightforward, I'm sure Warnock wouldn't fancy Mendez-Laing filling in at right back while Peltier or Manga goes inside but if he makes a defensive sub he's left with a back five when the centre-half comes back on.

Sin-bins would be more of a deterrent than people think, in my opinion. I assume you made your last sentence up to back up your argument (do they really have fans at that level?). I can't find any feedback on the trial scheme anywhere but I'd be interested if you've actually got a link

[Nick]

This is the list of leagues in which sin-bins were being trialled in the 2017/18 season, just finished. I don't suppose for one minute there have been any full and impartial views on the success or failure in the use of sin-bins in these leagues.

• Anglian Combination League • Jersey Football Combination

• Army Football League Massey • JJ Jones Builders Duchy League

• Birmingham & District Football League • Liverpool County FA Premier League

• Bolton, Bury & District Football League • Mid Sussex Football League

• Chester & Wirral Football League • Mid Sussex Youth & Minor Football League

• Cumberland County League • Midwest Counties Female

• Devon and Exeter Football League • North Staffs Youth League

• Dorset Premier League • Nottinghamshire Senior Football League

• Durham County Women’s • Notts. Amateur Alliance

• Evesham & District Sunday Football League • Peterborough & District Football League

• Gloucestershire County Women's League • Potteries & District Sunday League

• Gloucestershire Northern Senior League • Sevenoaks and District Football League

• Hertfordshire Senior County League • Sheffield & District Junior Sunday League

• Hitchin Sunday League • Southern Amateur League

• Surrey Primary Youth League • Trelawny League

• Taunton & District Saturday League • Warrington Sunday Football League

I have been looking from reviews form referees, players and fans of clubs in these leagues and I have yet to find anything.

I'm sure these reviews must be out there somewhere but I am yet to discover any of them. Obviously, these leagues are very much at the lower end of football leagues throughout the UK but again, I'm sure if reviews were out there they could be found.

[Divine Wright]

Who said anything about rugby being evil? For your information and Mr Gammons , I support Senghenydd in rugby. I watch them when the City are away, most weeks. Also watch my nephews play for Senghenydd youth. I just don’t like Nigel Owens, he gets on my bloody nerves with his “this is not soccer” and all the other anti football jibes he makes.

Fair enough. A lot of City fan's do seem to have a chip on their shoulder when it comes to rugby.

I heard Nigel Owens on a Colin Murray program the other day. He did seem a bit up himself (whilst trying to point out how humble and modest he is). But whatever. I don't see him having any real impact on the future of football anytime soon so take it with a pinch of salt.

I still think if you can have VAR in the game, sin-binning for diving would be perfectly feasible and might even add another level of excitment to the game. Those 15 minutes would be like the last 15 of a match where one team is attacking relentlessly and the other defending for their lives. Would probably make it more of a spectacle.

As for using it to deter diving, the problem (which has probably been mentioned) is catching them in the act.

The whole point of a dive is that it is designed to fool the ref ..... and a lot of times it works.

Diving should probably be made a VAR issue. If Mane gets a yellow for tapping SR on the face and he makes a meal of it, the video ref should be able to judge that the reaction was over the top and an attempt to get the opposition player booked.

[Badly Ironed Shirt]

I have yet to see a cogent argument in this thread as to why sin bins would not work in football, despite you suggesting that everyone is giving reasons it won't work.

Take your reasoning for example, and I quote:

"Owen also doesn't appreciate that sin bins won't work in football because football isn't rugby (thank feck)"

A good strong argument, that - Sin bins won't work in football because football isn't rugby.

Had video assistance been in place during the European final then Ramos would probably have spent at least 30 minutes in the bin for elbowing the keeper and for blatantly cheating and trying to get a free-kick / booking / Sending off for Mane. That may have made a difference to the outcome of the game.

I do hope, however, that some retrospective action is taken against Ramos for what was picked un on video, as referred to above. He deserves to be banned for quite a few games for those antics, which are not needed and not welcome on any football pitch or any other sporting field for that matter.

I still see the main problem in this thread being a rugby referee making a comment on football rather than the issue of VAR / sin bins in themselves.

It is woven throughout the whole of the thread.

Not at all, and I've made more views than just the one you've quoted and taken offence at. To elaborate, rugby is a sport with more natural stoppages than football. It is also a sport where refereeing decisions are not held under scrutiny in front of millions of TV viewers every week, and where referees are blamed for teams losing big matches. These last two points are what I think is wrong with football - along with cheating.

The only arguments I have heard for its implementation in football are that it would "stamp out cheating" (no facts to back this up) and it would be interesting.

The referee already has the tools in place to stop dissent. The FA has the tools to punish cheating and diving.

As for Nigel Owens - he has no interest in football. This much is a fact. He's often spoken disparagingly about football and I don't think I've ever seen a comment from him that speaks of football positively. Does that invalidate his opinion? No. Is it the main thrust of our argument? No.

Rugby is a different game, there are more stoppages, there is less feigning of injury, it is more of a contact sport than football (hence feigning injury will get little reward). Losing a player in rugby is a stiffer penalty than in football.

The question is, why aren't refs tougher on players they catch cheating, or showing dissent, or time wasting? Why aren't the football associations tougher when looking at incidents missed by referees? And why do we have supreme confidence that the people who fail to "control" these behaviours with existing tools will get a better result from sin bins? I'd suggest that the use of sin bins would be selective (not applied to goalies, not applied to a player when a team mate is already there).

The refchat site has a forum where actual referees discuss the implementation of this in their leagues.

If I have time later, I will dig out the pages that I was reading.

[Badly Ironed Shirt]

Fair enough. A lot of City fan's do seem to have a chip on their shoulder when it comes to rugby.

I heard Nigel Owens on a Colin Murray program the other day. He did seem a bit up himself (whilst trying to point out how humble and modest he is). But whatever. I don't see him having any real impact on the future of football anytime soon so take it with a pinch of salt.

I still think if you can have VAR in the game, sin-binning for diving would be perfectly feasible and might even add another level of excitment to the game. Those 15 minutes would be like the last 15 of a match where one team is attacking relentlessly and the other defending for their lives. Would probably make it more of a spectacle.

As for using it to deter diving, the problem (which has probably been mentioned) is catching them in the act.

The whole point of a dive is that it is designed to fool the ref ..... and a lot of times it works.

Diving should probably be made a VAR issue. If Mane gets a yellow for tapping SR on the face and he makes a meal of it, the video ref should be able to judge that the reaction was over the top and an attempt to get the opposition player booked.

Where's the cutoff for VAR? Premier League? Championship? Conference?

I think tennis is crap becauseAndy Murray v Roger Federer on centre court has a different set of parameters than Kyle Edmunds v John Isner on Court 12 despite them being in the same round of the same competition. Cardiff v Man C - no VAR, the match later in the day had VAR.

VAR is not infallible. It never will be.

[Nick]

Not at all, and I've made more views than just the one you've quoted and taken offence at. To elaborate, rugby is a sport with more natural stoppages than football. It is also a sport where refereeing decisions are not held under scrutiny in front of millions of TV viewers every week, and where referees are blamed for teams losing big matches. These last two points are what I think is wrong with football - along with cheating.

The only arguments I have heard for its implementation in football are that it would "stamp out cheating" (no facts to back this up) and it would be interesting.

The referee already has the tools in place to stop dissent. The FA has the tools to punish cheating and diving.

As for Nigel Owens - he has no interest in football. This much is a fact. He's often spoken disparagingly about football and I don't think I've ever seen a comment from him that speaks of football positively. Does that invalidate his opinion? No. Is it the main thrust of our argument? No.

Rugby is a different game, there are more stoppages, there is less feigning of injury, it is more of a contact sport than football (hence feigning injury will get little reward). Losing a player in rugby is a stiffer penalty than in football.

The question is, why aren't refs tougher on players they catch cheating, or showing dissent, or time wasting? Why aren't the football associations tougher when looking at incidents missed by referees? And why do we have supreme confidence that the people who fail to "control" these behaviours with existing tools will get a better result from sin bins? I'd suggest that the use of sin bins would be selective (not applied to goalies, not applied to a player when a team mate is already there).

The refchat site has a forum where actual referees discuss the implementation of this in their leagues.

If I have time later, I will dig out the pages that I was reading.

You may have made your views clear more than once, however, you suggested that many other had too -

"in fact those arguing against the sin bin are mainly giving reasons why it won't work"

As I have said, at that point I have seen hardly anyone, if anyone at all, giving reasons why sin bins won't work.

I was not offended in any way by the view that you stated, in case this was bothering you. I do look forward to all of the comments by fans, players and referees that you referred to saying how much they have hated the sin bin experiment in the lower leagues that have tried it. Because, try as I might, I could not find any at all.

I'm sure they're all there though.

[Loramski]

The refchat site has a forum where actual referees discuss the implementation of this in their leagues.

If I have time later, I will dig out the pages that I was reading.

Had a quick look myself, the only thread I could find was this one.

https://www.refchat.co.uk/threads/sin-bins.11464/

Six posts, one ref was in favour but two weren't 'massive fans'. No sign of the word hate, very tame. No mention of the fans or the players views either, I guess they'd be on the fanchat and playerchat sites? Looking forward to reading the thread you saw, it sounds vitriolic.

[Badly Ironed Shirt]

You may have made your views clear more than once, however, you suggested that many other had too -

"in fact those arguing against the sin bin are mainly giving reasons why it won't work"

As I have said, at that point I have seen hardly anyone, if anyone at all, giving reasons why sin bins won't work.

I was not offended in any way by the view that you stated, in case this was bothering you. I do look forward to all of the comments by fans, players and referees that you referred to saying how much they have hated the sin bin experiment in the lower leagues that have tried it. Because, try as I might, I could not find any at all.

I'm sure they're all there though.

There were plenty of reasons given - you were just being selective in picking out comments to substantiate your "cretins" remark.

[Badly Ironed Shirt]

Had a quick look myself, the only thread I could find was this one.

https://www.refchat.co.uk/threads/sin-bins.11464/

Six posts, one ref was in favour but two weren't 'massive fans'. No sign of the word hate, very tame. No mention of the fans or the players views either, I guess they'd be on the fanchat and playerchat sites? Looking forward to reading the thread you saw, it sounds vitriolic.

Will try to put it up this evening.

[Nick]

There were plenty of reasons given - you were just being selective in picking out comments to substantiate your "cretins" remark.

Perhaps, to save me reading back you could let me have, say, half a dozen of the "plenty of reasons given", you refer to.

[Badly Ironed Shirt]

Perhaps, to save me reading back you could let me have, say, half a dozen of the "plenty of reasons given", you refer to.

Burden of proof fallacy.

[Nick]

Burden of proof fallacy.

OK, that's not a problem.

I've now read back through the thread anyway.

[Divine Wright]

Where's the cutoff for VAR? Premier League? Championship? Conference?

I think tennis is crap becauseAndy Murray v Roger Federer on centre court has a different set of parameters than Kyle Edmunds v John Isner on Court 12 despite them being in the same round of the same competition. Cardiff v Man C - no VAR, the match later in the day had VAR.

VAR is not infallible. It never will be.

I wouldn’t mind having a video ref but VAR just seems overly complex in it’s supposed simplicity (clear and obvious). It seems to slow the game down.

What I find more infuriating is blatant cheating.

Suarez’s hanball against Ghana should have seen him banned for the rest of that world cup and the next. It’s much more damaging than a ref not seeing a marginal offside.

[Loramski]

Will try to put it up this evening.

No rush. Whenever you're ready.

[J R Hartley]

No rush. Whenever you're ready.

Bump.

[J R Hartley]

A headline **** would be proud of.

You could change your name to Aunty A.nnis.

No real thoughts on wether it would, or wouldn’t work, much like VAR it would cause massive disruption to implement, and implement properly.

[Auntie Andy]

A headline **** would be proud of.

You could change your name to Aunty A.nnis.

No real thoughts on wether it would, or wouldn’t work, much like VAR it would cause massive disruption to implement, and implement properly.

Damn it, I’ve been rumbled

Blimey I only thought I’d like to an article from Walesonline with a catchy title and it’s all kicked off (pun intended).

[Nick]

No rush. Whenever you're ready.

[Harry Monk]

Would a game where say a team had 2 players sent off and two sin binned have to be abandoned? I'm sure the laws of the game say that if a team has less than 8 players, the game must be abandoned.

[jon1959]

Would a game where say a team had 2 players sent off and two sin binned have to be abandoned? I'm sure the laws of the game say that if a team has less than 8 players, the game must be abandoned.

That would never happen!

https://www.theguardian.com/football...8/match.sport4

[Loramski]

I feel bad now, I wouldn't have asked if I'd known he was this busy. I thought a Tuesday night would have been good for him, he always seems to have them free when City lose or have a small crowd.

[Nick]

I feel bad now, I wouldn't have asked if I'd known he was this busy. I thought a Tuesday night would have been good for him, he always seems to have them free when City lose or have a small crowd.

He always gets found out and disappears until, he hopes, everyone has forgotten his untruths and shortcomings.

[Elwood Blues]

I feel bad now, I wouldn't have asked if I'd known he was this busy. I thought a Tuesday night would have been good for him, he always seems to have them free when City lose or have a small crowd.

He is too busy ironing his shirt.

[Nick]

Badly.

Like everything else he says and does.

[Badly Ironed Shirt]

OK, that's not a problem.

I've now read back through the thread anyway.

And what were your findings Croesy?

No rush. Whenever you're ready.

I feel bad now, I wouldn't have asked if I'd known he was this busy. I thought a Tuesday night would have been good for him, he always seems to have them free when City lose or have a small crowd.

Hmmm, so no rush for my link but a bitchy response when I haven't posted for a few hours. If it's OK with you, I have had to nurse my little lad through toothache - all things considered - your yearnings were not that high on my list of priorities. I'm sorry if that doesn't tie in with your graph on the patterns of my internet behaviour (I prefer your loan watch to your "me" watch). You are already exhibiting signs of confirmation bias, so whilst I was going to post some links you can wait a little while longer just for being so needy.

He is too busy ironing his shirt.

Fair play, that was hilarious. I'd ask for an encore but, one semi decent joke in 20 years from you probably means that I should reign in my expectation levels.

Badly.

Like everything else he says and does.

Any signs of your mid-life crisis ending? It's been 20 years now.

https://www.refchat.co.uk/threads/si...ea-pigs.10114/

https://www.refchat.co.uk/threads/sin-bins.10501/

I have other links too - if you can exhibit a little more patience.